Thursday, October 26, 2006

Pu-leaze

It gives me no pleasure to read of someone being hunted down for tax evasion. But at the same time I have a hard time buying Vox Day’s defense of his father, whom he now attempts to cast as some sort of renegade warrior folk hero.

According to the Star-Tribune article, Robert Beale went on the lam rather than face court over the $1.6 million in back taxes the IRS seeks to collect. Vox contends that his daddy's running away proves his bravery.

I’d say that’s all well and good if you don’t leave behind a family to take the heat you refuse to face yourself. Apparently this “brilliant” businessman realizes - in retrospect - that running from a problem won‘t make it go away. Authorities are now badgering Beale’s children in an attempt to find the fugitive CEO, who briefly sought refuge in a Wisconsin mobile home. According the article, Robert Beale told the mobile home's owner, Martin Chapman, that he needed a place to stay because he was having trouble with his wife. The article didn't say whether Chapman questioned why a rich CEO having trouble at home didn't just get a hotel room. (Not too long ago, Vox stated that his dad considered communication with people of ordinary intelligence a form of hell on earth. One has to imagine if the elder Beale has had a chance to reflect on the irony of his snobbery, given that he was forced to turn to an easily-duped trailer dweller for protection.)

Like most Americans, I’m no fan of the current tax code, which places an unfair burden on most Americans. It should be amended, and working within the system is frustrating. Change - if it does come - comes slowly. Robert Beale was in a position many Americans do not enjoy - he had the resources to fight back. The amount that Beale owed is a drop in the bucket for a wealthy man. He could have paid it and devoted himself to fighting the tax code. It surely would have made more sense than slinking away into the hills and leaving his family to be tossed about by the waves of worry, government harrassment and public humiliation. When considering which of our treasures is worthy of protection, the treasure of family should always come first.

I can’t imagine putting my family through that kind of worry for $10 million, let alone the $1.6 million Beale seeks to protect. Facing a dragon like the U.S. Government is daunting, to be sure. It takes bravery to stand and fight, especially when you know that you may not win the first round. But to leave your family to deal with the fallout alone? No, that’s not bravery. Not even by a long shot.

UPDATE:

It's been brought to my attention that two posters have come out at Vox's blog to dispute his notion that Daddy is Brave. For their efforts, they are being accused of being me, Morgan, posting under another name. It's understandable given that his blog is largely an echo chamber.

Of course, it would be easy for Vox to set the record straight as he already unwittingly has done with the person posting as IRS, whose physical location isn't anywhere near the Southeast, where I live. He could easily do the same with the person posting as Ladybug, since he can easily compare my ISP - which he recognizes - to his/hers.

Oh, and it appears in a fit of anger, Vox publicly posted IRS's IP address and laughably threatened to turn him/her over to the government. Can you believe that? Well, I can. It seems he inherited a certain whiny fugitive's sense of irony.

The question is, will Vox set the record straight? Or will he allow his readers to assume that only one person disagrees with him and is posting under a variety of names? Don't hold your breath. My guess is that he will allow them to believe only one person believes his father took a cowardly route, thereby proving that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

71 comments:

Erik said...

So are you saying that the right thing to do would be to let yourself be thrown in jail?

Or are you saying that he should have tried to work within the system, even tho everyone knows that that will never work?

Also, are you saying that only an "ordinary" person would choose to live in a mobile home? As opposed to a person who may have freely chosen it?

I have posted numerous times on the illegality of the Income Tax. I have also been fighting this fight for about 6 years now. Not only have my questions been ignored, even those questions filed under the Freedom Of Information Act, but my formal Petition of the FedGov has been steadfastly ignored. The system is not slow, it isnt even broken. The system is designed to not be responsive. It is designed to ignore Citizens, and crush them when necessary.

And that little tidbit about only 10,000 not paying fed taxes is erroneous. IIRC the number is more like 2 million. And there are millions more who lie/cheat on their "taxes" every year. But regardless of the number of people paying or "cheating," the tax is illegal. Those who take on the FedGov live with an awful lot of stress and it certainly isnt for the faint of heart.

Morgan said...

"So are you saying that the right thing to do would be to let yourself be thrown in jail?"

I'm saying the right thing to do before fleeing the law - for any cause - is to fully consider how your actions will impact others. According to the article, Robert Beale is surprised that his fugitive status has been difficult. He admits to being naive.
I don't buy it. You don't build a successful business if you're an idiot, and only an idiot would believe that the government won't put heat on the family of a fugitive, or that he would be able to live a posh and comfy life while trying to stay a step ahead of the law.
It appears Beale valued his money and his pride above his family's wellbeing in this situation. He'll eventually go to prison. It's just a matter of time. In the interim, his family - particularly his wife - will be left imprisoned by worry.
No, taking on the government isn't for the faint of heart. It is a consuming and expensive battle. Someone has to fight. Beale was in a better position that most of us. He has the resources and the savvy. But ultimately he did the cowardly thing, no matter how much his loving son wants to spin it.
Robert Beale ran away and his fugitive status will only bring heartache to his family until he is captured - or, God forbid, worse.
And the IRS will have even more ammunition against him since his running implies guilt.

Morgan said...

"Also, are you saying that only an "ordinary" person would choose to live in a mobile home? As opposed to a person who may have freely chosen it?"

Vox admits to being an elitist and the apple probably doesn't fall far from a tree. Chapman was a humble tree trimmer who - if he's not lying - never stopped to question why a millionare businessman wouldn't just get a hotel room to escape trouble at home.
Ordinarily, this isn't the type of person an elitist hangs with. But apparently when they need a place to hide, the humble trailer dweller is the perfect shill.

Anonymous said...

So are you saying that the right thing to do would be to let yourself be thrown in jail?


I think she's saying to pay your darn taxes.

Morgan said...

Actually, Anon, what I'm saying is this: If you're going to be a martyr, be a martyr by yourself. Don't be a martyr in a way that punishes those closest to you. Vox can say his father's action don't impact the family all he wants, but the truth is it does and his father so much as admitted it with his email he reportedly sent to Vox. His family is now dealing with the heartache and worry that comes when one's relative is the object of a manhunt. And Vox never mentions his mother, but I'm sure this has to be especially hard on her.
Then of course, there's the fact that Robert Beale has made tax protesters look like a bunch of wimps by emailing about how "hard" it is to live on the run. If he couldn't hack it, he shouldn't have run in the first place.

Anonymous said...

Too funny...they are talking about you at Vox yet Vox picks on the blogs and quotes of others all the time in order to give his own blog a topic...the hypocrisy over there never ends....

Erik said...

Morgan

It IS hard to fight the Gov. They have all the money and all the guns. But there are those of us who simply must fight the good fight. And that does hurt those who love us. period.

I figure Beale started the fight many years ago and it has gotten progressively hard on his family (and him) and he likely knew it would get hard but did it anyways because he felt it was the right thing to do. And I think everyone feels some regret when their actions cause them hardships, even if they believe their actions to be right. I know because I have been in this position myself several times in the past 6 years. It isnt about money, it is about principle.

Morgan said...

Is it really the good fight, Erik? It sounds to me more like a self serving flight, a stubborn refusal to face the legal defeat he saw on the horizon.

If it was about principle, Robert Beale would have thought about the outcome. What is to be gained by running, other than personally avoiding punishment? He doesn't accomplish anything that will change how the IRS operates, or how other tax protesters will be treated in the future. All it does is guarantee his family will be publicly humiliated and monitored.

The only way the IRS will ever be brought to heel is a mass public uprising. That would require someone brave enough to garner and organize a LARGE grassroots movement. That also takes resources. When a man who is reputed to have both turns tail and runs, leaving his wife and children to suffer in his wake he's not living by his principles, he's betraying them.

Morgan said...

"Too funny...they are talking about you at Vox yet Vox picks on the blogs and quotes of others all the time in order to give his own blog a topic..."

Oh, they hate me over there, but I consider it a compliment. It's actually like being hated by one person, since they all march in lockstep with each other.
Vox can take the criticism, though. He's had his blog quoted before. He's used to it, I'm sure.

"the hypocrisy over there never ends...."

That's why I'm so amused. I've seen more hypocrisy over there than I can shake a stick at, some of it behind the scenes. Anytime someone paints themselves or another person as some sort of Christian hero or martyr, it sends up my radar a bit. It's a bit of fun to point out that not everyone is buying his image. Or his spin.

Erik said...

Morgan

Would we know about Mr. Beale if not for his flight? No. What would have happened is that another (likely good) man would be thrown in jail despite the fact that debtors prison is illegal. His flight is raising awareness of the issue and causing it to be spoken of around the water coolers and that is a good thing.

The more the gov's dirty laundry is aired the better, but Beales incarceration would do nothing to asist in that. I say keep running Mr. Beale, if you make it to Colorado, stop by.

Suspect said...

What use is an extra $1.6 million if you have to live on the run to spend it?

Fuck illegality. Fuck moral questions of tax. Fuck "the fight against the system".

If I'd spent my whole life making a ton of money, I sure wouldn't try to keep back a small amount if that means I have to spend the rest of my life running from the law.

Oh, and by the way, everyone here should go to this page and leave a comment saying you love me.

Morgan said...

"Would we know about Mr. Beale if not for his flight?"

You're right. We'd know little. But now that he has run, here's what we know. Robert Beale is a rather soft pampered guy who told himself that he was smart enough to get away, that running from the law would be easy. We know that he's come to the realization that he was wrong. We know he was stupid enough to send an email to his son complaining about how hard running away was, even though it was likely that the email would eventually come to light. We know he's out there somewhere, scared and possibly in danger. We know his behavior has helped the goverment paint yet another protester as a ridiculous rich guy who's more stubborn than he is smart.
I'll say it one more time, Erik. The outcome of this will be the same. Beale will be caught and he will go to prison, where he will be far less effective if he'd paid the $1.6M the government will collect anyway and used his freedom and remaining resources to rally support against the tax code.
Don't tell me that man's reputation as a fugitive is more valuable than what he could have done on a grassroots level. The only people who believ that are Vox and his parrots.

Bobbb - Citizen of Earth said...

“So are you saying that the right thing to do would be to let yourself be thrown in jail?”

Yep that’s exactly what I am saying

Civil disobedience should be just that

Civil.

How are you going to take your argument to the people by running away?
What happened to confronting issues head on?

This guy has the money and the resources to make a case, start a movement even.
Who is going to follow a coward?
He may become a folk hero, even a legend, depending on how long he can evade capture.
But I doubt it.

I doubt it because his actions smack of a rich spoiled brat who doesn’t want to part with his money.
While the leader of a movement would be willing to spend that money in a campaign of resistance, rather than let the government have it.

The only way the IRS will ever be brought to heel is a mass public uprising. That would require someone brave enough to garner and organize a LARGE grassroots movement. That also takes resources. When a man who is reputed to have both turns tail and runs, leaving his wife and children to suffer in his wake he's not living by his principles, he's betraying them.

In 1849 Henry David Thoreau refused to pay his poll tax and support what he felt to be an unjust war
For this he was taken from his home, and from his community and thrown in jail.

While there he received a visit from his friend Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Emerson asked:

“Henry, what are you doing in there?”
Thoreau replied:
“Waldo, the question to you my friend is what are you doing out there?

Emerson missed the point.
Thoreau’s protest was not intended to reform society.
It was simply an act of conscience.

“If we do not distinguish right from wrong we will eventually lose the capacity to make the distinction and become, instead, morally numb.”

More than one kind of prison:

In the interim, his family - particularly his wife - will be left imprisoned by worry.

While in prison Thoreau expressed a similar thought.
He was angry with his well meaning neighbors, for paying his fine and getting him released, rather than to come to the same moral conclusions he had.
Seeing the wall of the cell in which he was confined, made of solid stone 2 or 3 feet thick, and the door of wood and iron a foot thick, he later wrote:

“If there were a wall of stone between me and my townsmen, there was still a more difficult one to climb or break through before they could get to be as free as I was.”

We are all imprisoned by our own inactions, our own inability to “act our conscience”
Blinded by denial, and rationalization, paralyzed by fear.

With all the arguments about the true nature of faith, spirituality, and the practical implementation of Christianity I have witnessed here I would have thought that this was the prison you would fear more.

Surely you don’t need a spiritual renegade such as myself to point out that there are walls you cannot see?

I am not suggesting that we all refuse to pay our taxes and line up to go to jail by the tens of millions.
But that certainly is an option.

Such action brought REAL CHANGE during the civil rights movement
I remember
I was there.

If this nation were to really follow its collective conscience and vote accordingly, Bush would have been history, and the fighting in Iraq would have ended.
Two years ago.

Unless you live in Arizona – your representatives voted, by an overwhelming majority, to start a war based on lies and false pretenses.
Remember that well on Election Day.


WAR IS OVER
IF YOU WANT IT TO BE
John Lennon

If you have not read “Civil Disobedience” by Henry David Thoreau – check it out.

Morgan said...

Bobb, that was the best post I've seen on this subject. I especially like the question Thoreau put to Emerson.

I kind of doubt Vox Day has read Thoreau. He's attempting now to deny the truth of his father's situation and, ironically, even threatened to turn one critic's ISP over to the *government*! The man really doesn't see his own cowardice or hypocrisy. It appears to be a genetic problem. ;-)

Really though, Bobb. That You nailed this better than I ever could. Thank you.

Erik said...

Bob

Civil Disobedience is one of my favorite books. I have read it numerous times. I highly reccommend MLK's "Letter from a birmingham jail" as well

Do you guys seriously think that the man has/had a chance in today's courts? They railroad. There is no justice. Let me give you a direct quote from the judge in Irwin Schiff's case. The judge said (and I quote) "I will not allow the law in my courtroom." He later went on to overrule Schif when Schiff attempted to bring up the Supreme Court. The judge ruled that the Supreme Court was "Irrelevant" and Schiff was "denied!" Schiff asked if he was really saying that SC was irrelevant and the judge repeated the same. "Irrelevant. Denied!"

This is the court system that we have today. There is not even a pretense of law anymore. There is only one grassroots movement that has any hope of succeeding and that is We The People's suit against the Gov regarding Petition Rights (1st Amendment) I am personally a named member of that suit and I hope that we win (currently at the DC Circuit Court of Appeals) but I really think it is simply going to show us that the Gov we once had is gone.

If we have no Right of Petition than we really have no right at all because we then cannot force the Gov to recognize our Rights. As is the only Right left from the Bill of Rights is not to have soldiers quarted in our homes and I think that has more to do with it being much easier on the Gov to keep them in one spot(on base)

Bobbb - Citizen of Earth said...

Do you guys seriously think that the man has/had a chance in today's courts?

Moot point
It doesnt matter

It is not about the man.

It will be about the reaction of the masses.
It is about waking the national psyche and allowing it to speak.

If he is not willing to be "the meteor" - then he should just pay his taxes

The fact that the legal system is lacking can be just one more thing he can add to his "cause"

Morgan said...

Erik,

What would happen if someone who could amassed enough support on a grassroots level to get the majority of folks to withhold their taxes? What is the government going to do? Throw everyone in jail.

If only MLK had marched, they'd have thrown him in jail and the civil rights movement wouldn't have gotten off the ground. The sight of government cops trying to squelch masses of people got folks to stand up and take notice.
If an anti-tax movement is to work, its going to take numbers. If the numbers aren't there, it won't work.

One soft, wealthy fugitive sending whiny emails about how "hard" life on the run is does nothing but set the whole thing back.

Like Bobb said, Beale could have done so much more. But no one will follow a coward.

Morgan said...

The fact that the legal system is lacking can be just one more thing he can add to his "cause"

Bobb, Vox and his family are also trying to say this is religious persecution which is just so ridiculous I'm almost embarrassed for them. I suppose they think if Robert Beale is caught the G-man will put a crown of thorns on his head and beat him through the streets of Minneapolis.

Erik said...

What would happen if someone who could amassed enough support on a grassroots level to get the majority of folks to withhold their taxes? What is the government going to do? Throw everyone in jail.

We The People has been working on that for years. Quite obviously it hasnt reached critical mass yet. How much more could Beale have done? And Bob, the media keeps these trials very hush-hush so if he went to trial there would have been no "meteor" just a blurb that he was arrested and a blurb that he was convicted.

Morgan, MLK stayed and pushed his non-violent protests for two reasons. One: religious conviction and Two: There were others pushing for a violent revolt. MLK did what he did to keep people from dying.

I havent seen anything about this being religious persecution. What I have seen is that part of the reason he didnt stay was because of his religious beliefs. I am not sure what belief that is but it isnt persecution.

Morgan said...

Erik, you need to read the comments over at VP. I believe Vox's wife does say it's religious persecution.

If We the People have been working on it, then they need to keep working on it. It will likely take a while before people are so fed up with the tax code that they rise up and do something about it.
But again I say that Robert Beale did nothing but hand the government the perfect poster child if they want to portray tax protesters as a bunch of whiny, self-serving pussies.

He skips out on his court appearance and then lets a sob-story email fall into the hands of the feds. If this guy handled a business the way he handles his fugitive status he would never had $1.6M to fight over in the first place.

Here's something else to take into account: Tax protesters need to realize that if there is no groundswell, then it may be because the majority of people don't agree with them and consider taxes a necessary burden given that they fund wars, roads, schools, etc. I know it's not something you and other tax protesters want to hear, but I think it needs to be said.

If that's the case, there will be plenty more Bungling Beales to pick off - one by one - in the future.

MikeT said...

It's generally rare that I agree with you, but this is definitely one of those times. If I didn't have family or a girlfriend to worry about, I'd probably be living in Costa Rica, Ireland or Italy by now. F$%^ the IRS, but with the kind of money Vox's dad owed compared to his wealth, it wasn't the right time to fight. Much better to pay the taxes, keep your family stable, and then pour $10M into funding a libertarian campaign in a serious state where a foothold might take (VA Beach saw a libertarian mayoral candidate nearly win with 43% of the popular vote; the Republican got 6%!)

What I don't get is why Vox and his friends and family still live in that state if it's so bad. I'd just as soon as move to Mexico as move there because at least in Mexico you know what you're up against.

The irony of it is that he could have just moved to Northern Virginia if he likes the metropolitan life so much. We have viable employees for his line of work by the boat loads here, and the Northern Virginia government is still largely under the control of the rest of Virginia which is mostly a sleepy red state.

Morgan said...

Mike,

Vox would argue that he only wanted to provide people in his home state jobs, but I think that's a lot of bunk. The best way to send a message to a state with an unfair tax code is to move your business somewhere else.

If you're going to fight on principle, why pick a strategy that can only lead to defeat? The stragegy you outlined, Mike, would have made much more sense. And it would have ultimately been more productive.

I think Beale didn't go that route because ultimately this fight wasn't about principles, as his shame-faced relatives contend. It was about Robert Beale.

Bobbb - Citizen of Earth said...

I suppose they think if Robert Beale is caught the G-man will put a crown of thorns on his head and beat him through the streets of Minneapolis.

I suspect that to him this is the equivalent to parting with his money.

As for his family, would they suffer all that much if they had to part with $10 million and live like the rest of us?

I feel a song quote comming on...

It may have been Camelot

For Jack and Jacqueline

Out on the Che’ Guevara highway filling up with gasoline

Fidel Castro's brother spies a rich lady who is crying

Over luxury's disappointments so he walks over and he is trying

To sympathize with her

But he thinks that he should warn her

That the third world
Is just around the corner"


Billy Bragg – Great Leap Forward

Erik said...

I have been keeping up with and even posting over there. SB said no such thing. Simply that his beliefs are a part of the reason he left.

As for taxation, that is simply their ignorance. Not a SINGLE thing that we expect from the Gov is funded by income tax. Not one. Not military/navy, not roads, not schools. What IS funded with income tax is welfare and a little bit of the interest on the national debt. That is it. Nothing more.

And you are right that many people dont care. They have been taught to believe that it is their civic duty and when confronted with this info they dont want to believe it because they dont want to believe that they have been wrong for 20,30,40 years or more.

Morgan said...

Erik, I was speaking of taxes in general. The VP crowd doesn't believe that taxes should be taken to fund anything they don't believe in - not roads, school, health care for the poor, etc.
Not all of us believe that way, though. I know quite a few people who pay a great deal in taxes (my dad's among them) and still live very, very well.

As for welfare, it has its flaws but again Jesus said the poor will always be with us. I don't like the fact that the system is exploited, but at the same time I'm among those folks who doesn't mind that some of what I make goes to help people who can't make it on their own. Even though I homeschool, I don't mind my tax dollars funding education. And even though I don't travel on a lot of the roads the gas tax funds to build I don't have a problem paying extra at the pump so those roads can exist for others. My family lives modestly but well. I have no complaints. But then I've never had a problem with sharing in general.

Again, I'd imagine the majority of people in this country don't subscribe to the radical mindset of Vox and Co. If they do, eventually there may be a groundswell of protest against the system. Until then, people like Robert Beale will run, and leave his loved ones to try and portray his cowardice as something other than it is.

Bobbb - Citizen of Earth said...

As for taxation, that is simply their ignorance. Not a SINGLE thing that we expect from the Gov is funded by income tax. Not one. Not military/navy, not roads, not schools. What IS funded with income tax is welfare and a little bit of the interest on the national debt. That is it. Nothing more.


forgive me in advance for being rude
But that is the most Ignorant thing I have read today.

Perhaps all year

Erik said...

"forgive me in advance for being rude
But that is the most Ignorant thing I have read today.

Perhaps all year"


Bobbb, you need to pay more attention to the various reports that the Gov puts out. That is per the Grace Commision's report to the President regarding taxes. That isnt my take on it.

You are excused this time, just dont let it happen again (o=

"But then I've never had a problem with sharing in general"

Morgan
Forced "sharing" isnt sharing. It is called theft if done by anyone but Government. But who is it you are sharing with when your money goes to welfare? Much has been made of the abuse of the system and people who dont meet the criteria getting money, but that isnt the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that 73 cents out of every dollar spent on welfare stays with the government. And that is another # from the Gov itself, not a number I am making up. So even if fraud took half of the available money (13.5%) that is still not even a 5th of what is kept by the Gov to support their own bloatedness.

As you said we are told that the poor will always be with us, so using that logic isnt it wrong-headed to continue a "war on pverty" that has spent in excess of 3 tillion dollars yet has if anything deepened poverty and dependence upon the government?

And one more thing. Charity is an individual virtue/command. It isnt a corporate command or virtue. James didnt write "Pure Government and undefiled before G-d and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction"

sammyray said...

Look, the guy owes tax money to the government. He doesn't want to pay. He is wrong, not a hero.

I absolutely agree with you, Morgan. The tax codes suck - they absolutely need to be reworked. But simply running away is COWARDLY. Like you said, fight to correct the problem within - THAT takes courage.

The unfortunate reality is that rich people have the resources to fight, but no moral backbone. And those with moral backbone have no money.

Someday another Revolutionary War will be needed to cleanse this mess.

Oh great, now they're coming for me. I'm outta here!!!!!!!

Morgan said...

Good Lord, Erik. You need to read VP more closely if you think the complaints your anti-tax compadres have is simply about government mismanagement.

They and their ilk aren't calling for government welfare reform. They simply DON'T WANT TO BE REQUIRED TO PAY TAXES. Period. It wouldn't matter how efficient a beuracracy we had in this nation; they would be four-square against contributing.

Yes, government oversight has turned the welfare system into a bloated boondoggle. But at the same time, no one in this nation is going hungry and the poor can get subsidies out the wazoo. It needs some fine-tuning, obviously, but it is helping a lot of needy folks who would otherwise be flat out of luck.

Anti-tax folks don't like the idea of anyone else getting their money, especially if that money's going to clear up the snotty nose of some sick little minority baby. The alternative to fixing the system is to scrap it and let everyone fend for themselves.

Again, their fight isn't about streamlining thing so tax money is spent more wisely. If it was they'd be on an anti-fraud campaign, not an anti-tax one.

Morgan said...

"The unfortunate reality is that rich people have the resources to fight, but no moral backbone. And those with moral backbone have no money."

Exactly, sammyray. But the poor ones with moral backbones often have trailer homes where the rich ones without moral backbones use as hiding places.
Over at VP, dissenters are being accused of "pretending" to care about Vox and his family. I make no such pretense. I hope they catch Robert Beale, if for no other reason than a bit of jail time will give him time to ponder what a pathetic hypocrite he is.

Erik said...

Morgan

No one over there is saying that they dont want to pay any taxes. the question is this "What law requires ANYONE to pay an income tax?" If there is no law, does one still have to pay it? Should one still pay it?

And if there is no law requiring Americans to pay an income tax, what law did Beale break? And if Beale didnt break a law, why all the fuss?

In not ONE court case has the IRS shown the law that was supposedly broken. Not one. Nor are they willing to point out the law when asked in Press Conferences, on talk shows, in a mediated debate, when required by a congressman, or when lawfully petitioned by the People.

So tell me, what law is it that Beale broke. The IRS is unwilling or unable to point out that law. No one has been able to point it out. If you cannot point to a law (as no one else can because it simply doesnt exist) why insist that he face trial for it?

Bobbb - Citizen of Earth said...

I just spent 2 hours working on a response to you erik.

Im not going to post it.
I don't want to discuss economics.

Here is the gist of it:

Bottom line time

Money comes in
Money goes out
Earmarks and pie charts are just an illusion to keep you ignorant of the inner workings of government spending.
If you cut one source of income – you have to make up for it somewhere else

If they don’t tax you - they will tax business, and those costs will be passed along.
To you

“you need to pay more attention to the various reports that the Gov puts out.”
All a part of the illusion
Read them if you must – but be skeptical.

Ultimately there is only one “pool” of money – no matter how you want to divide, capitalize, and associate the sources.

Your tax dollars do not go directly to welfare – that is a false association.

An association that can be amended to suit a multitude of purposes.

They go into a budget – along with all the other revenues.

We put such a huge emphasis on budgets year after year
Analyzing them ad nauseum

But have you ever taken the time to analyze a budget retrospectively?
How much of the money actually goes where they said it was going to go?

You will be surprised.

“You are excused this time, just dont let it happen again (o=”

Don’t threaten me, I am being polite here

Erik said...

Bobbb

So when the Gov itself says that it spends personal income tax revenue on welfare and interest payments and not on services a citizen expects, I should just ignore that?

Yes money is fungible, general revenues gets spent on a great deal of things etc. But the fact of the matter is the gov admits it, and again there is still no law requiring an American to pay a personal income tax.

And there was no threat, express or implied. It was an attempt at humor as the smiley after it atests to.

Bobbb - Citizen of Earth said...

Good to know

I'm not up on my emoticons
Darned technology

Yet without it I would never write

Sigh

Forgive me - its beem a long week

I really do prefer writing love letters, as Zenspace will testify.

I'm glad she lets me share some of them

Morgan said...

Erik, your post begs a question. If Robert Beale isn't breaking a law, then he should use his substantial resources to march into court and prove it. Before court he should use his wealth to marshall as much press coverage as he can and then hire the likes of a Jerry Spence or other loud-mouthed attorney to state his case both publicly and before a judge.

You say there's no law he's breaking so there's no need to obey. I say if there's no law why is he running? The could NOT convict him if there's no legal precedent, Erik.

Under what legal ruling could they convict him if there is no law, Erik?

Morgan said...

My thinking, too, is that it's just money. My treasure isn't measured by what I have in the bank. I think that's the difference between people like me and people like Robert Beale. Fair or not, if he'd paid the $1.6M he would have had enough left to live comfortably. And he would still have his family, which is where his focus should lie anyway.
Then he could fight the tax fight above board, with his family by his side and supportive.

sammyray said...

Amen, sister!!!!!

Anonymous said...

They just can't let it go over there Morgan. Now they're saying you've got folks posting on your behalf. Spacebunny is offering her typical babbling stupidity. Vox is hiding while she answers for him. Gosh you're right! He is a lot like his dad!

Morgan said...

Anon, I'm not surprised that they're saying that. Their world is limited to their own kind, and it escapes them that there are more people than not who disagree with their fringe views.
I had an army of minions I couldn't find anything better to do with them than to have them pick on Vox Day. His dad seems to be embarrassing him far more than I ever could. As for Spacebunny, the only difference between her head and a wiffle ball is hair.
The whole lot of them are just bizarre.

Erik said...

I say if there's no law why is he running? The could NOT convict him if there's no legal precedent, Erik.

Under what legal ruling could they convict him if there is no law, Erik?


You must have missed my previous quote by the "judge" presiding over the Irwin Schiff case. A case that DID garner quite a bit of attention. The quote... "I will not allow the law in my courtroom." When Schiff attempted to bring up the Supreme Court the "judge" ruled that the SC was "irrelevant" despite the fact that all lower court rulings MUST conform to SC rulings, otherwise they are invalid.

Despite the fact that there is no law people get convicted on a regular basis anyways. As I said before the IRS NEVER produces the law in court. Never. That fact has saved several people from being convicted be juries that get miffed that they arent allowed to see the law that the person broke. Vernice Kuglin comes to mind. She supposedly owed $920,000.

Also, it isnt about money. I havent even made 1.6 million in my entire life (Wish I had!) but I fight the IRS. It is about principle. I fight for freedom even tho others think I am a looney. And I kinda agree with them because life as a slave would really be a lot easier.

Morgan said...

Erik, I do believe that judge's comments would certainly be grounds for appeal. It's not a perfect situation, but there is a process that gives convicted people a second chance.

Again, let me state that Beale's money would make it far harder for him to be railroaded. Again, a man with substantial means *could* have used past cases to highlight what may happen to him. He could hire a high-profile lawyer to trumpet his case to the media. If what you say is true and people are being convicted outside the bounds of law (which I still don't buy based on the example of one judge) then that's all the more reason to stand and fight if you have the resources. But I'm thinking Beale, who obviously couldn't bear the idea of losing $1.6M would be reluctant to shell out more money for a legal fight that would help others who came after him. He figured it was cheaper to run. If what you say is true, people like him only enable the IRS, Erik.

As for your contention that paying taxes makes you a slave, again I'd argue that why the system isn't perfect, we are damn lucky to enjoy the lifestyle we do in this nation. Even if Vox's daddy had ponied up the $1.6M, he still would have lived far more comfortably than most people. Now he's running scared and in retrospect maybe he realizes he had it better than he realized.

Bone Head said...

Token Hippie:

Just curious in regard to legalities.

1.If you are really a hippie, wouldn't you be a smoker of Marijuana?

2. Have you ever had occasion to supply marijuana to others?

3.Have you declared any income from these proceedings to the IRS?

4.Could this affect your family in a negative way someday?

Morgan said...

Ah, Bone Head. I recognize you from the porn debate. If memory serves you consider the Sistine Chapel gay porn.

In answer to your question, I do not smoke pot. I do not have a problem with people who do, though, any more than I would have a problem with people who use alcohol.

I have been known to grow and sell herbs, but they are from my garden, and are not marijuana. If anyone gets high from smoking my purple basil, I cannot be held responsible.

Bone Head said...

I am flattered.

Actually, you remember me quoting from a gay site on the Sistine Chapel.

I am shocked that there are Hippies that don't indulge in the marijuana sacrament.

Just seems incongruous somehow.
.

Morgan said...

It doesn't surprise me that you are a regular reader of gay sites. I would imagine most of Vox's male fans are. They just don't admit it the way you just did.

And I'm glad I was able to dispel your myth that all hippies smoke pot. It's not often someone so wilfully stupid stops by and allows themselves to be educated.

It's nice to be of service.

Bone Head said...

I am not a regular reader of gay sites, but I do have the necessary skills to use Google.

I am quite surprised to learn you are the only Hippie I have heard of to have not succumbed to the devil weed.

.

Morgan said...

And I'm surprised to hear such a lame defense from someone who admits to surfing the Net for gay porn. "Oh, I'm sorry, honey. I was looking for information on the Sistine Chapel and up pops this picture of two guys fucking."

Yeah, right.

Morgan said...

Not that there's anything wrong with that though, Bone Head. Here at the Token Hippie we have a don't ask don't tell policy. You're welcome to post anytime. ;-)

Erik said...

Look up Dick Simkanin. He got railroaded too. He was very high profile. He had a lot of money. He had a high profile lawyer. There were billboards up in the community letting people know about him. It didn't help him.

In the Simkanin case the "judge" denied Simkanin his witnesses and his evidence as well as the law. He was not allowed to present info in his favor, nor witnesses in his favor.

I wanted to post some of the transcript of the first day of Simkanin's trial in here but it is too long. Check out this page and look for the highlighted info.

Other things of interest in the case... Simkanin was placed before a Grand Jury 3 times. The first two times he appeared and explained his position and the Grand Juries dropped the charges against him. The Gov got a third Grand Jury and this time would not allow Simkanin to appear at it. This is how they got him to trial.

Simkanin's first trial ended in a hung jury. 11-1 for aquittal.

Simkanin's 2nd trial the jury specifically asked for the law that was broken. The Judge refused to show them. The jury asked again. Again the Judge refused. The Judge also told the jury two lies from the bench. One is that SS is mandatory (it is not, per the SSA) and gave them an erroneous definition of "willful" in direct contrast to what the 5th Circuit and the Supreme Court have ruled it to mean.

Bone Head said...

I thought you leftists were gay-friendly. I guess it is just a pose, just like the Hippie thing.
.

Erik said...

Oh yeah, the Judge, the "honorable" judge McBryde had been previously suspended by the U.S. Court of Appeals for flagrant judicial misconduct.

Bobbb - Citizen of Earth said...

Bone Head said...
I thought you leftists were gay-friendly. I guess it is just a pose, just like the Hippie thing.

Comming from someone named bone head!

Gay friendly does not equal moron friendly

Hippies smoke dope
Leftists love gays

And moronic fools cast stereotypes on people they know nothing about.

MikeT said...

So the hippy is now a cracker? I like Vox because he knows how to stir shit up and really brings out the Inner Moron in most of his critics, but his minions... egads...

You ought to be simultaneously flattered and insulted.

Russ said...

MikeT said...

So the hippy is now a cracker? I like Vox because he knows how to stir shit up and really brings out the Inner Moron in most of his critics, but his minions... egads...

You ought to be simultaneously flattered and insulted.

9:54 PM

No Mike. You only need to consider the source.

Vox is a spoiled brat who thinks he is something he is not, and most of his "troup" have their collective noses up his...Well, I'm sure you get my meaning.;~))

I mean, come on. How clearly can you see when you have someone's arse blocking your view...HMMM?

Oh Miss Morgan, Please stop me.:~0

Morgan said...

Actually Bone Head I have no problem with gays at all. I just think it's funny when a gay-basher ilke you who claims the Sistine Chapel is gay porn slips up and admits to surfing porn sites.
The closet door stands open. Come out, my friend. Come out.

Morgan said...

Erik, so the answer will *always* be to run? If that's what the government is trying to do - turn everyone into a bunch of cowering pussies afraid to fight then they are obviously doing a good job. I mean, it worked on Beale.

Keep giving people an excuse to run and they will run. It will only make the situation work, so please don't tell me it's the brave thing to do.

Morgan said...

I kind of agree with both Mike and Russ. Vox's followers are blindly stupid. And while he's smarter he's at least entertaining and can be thought provoking. But he's allowed himself to be defined by the rabble surrounding him and keeps them fed with fringe prattling because they buy into the image he wants to project as some sort of jetsetting author, when the truth is that his fiction is unreadable and few outside his regular posters seem to admire him.
I think this whole thing with his father has been just another blow to the persona he's trying to hold together. He's long upheld his father as some sort of great inspiration. How easy can it be to accept the fact that the man who taught you all you know will be remembered as a cringing fugitive?
It's hard not to feel sorry for Vox in a way. But at the same time his criticism of others has been harsh and he should expect a taste of his own medicine from time to time.

Morgan said...

"I mean, come on. How clearly can you see when you have someone's arse blocking your view...HMMM?

Oh Miss Morgan, Please stop me.:~0"

Ha! :-)
No, I prefer you keep going. You said what I wanted to say, only you said it better. Your description pretty much sums up the group at VP.

Russ said...

"I mean, come on. How clearly can you see when you have someone's arse blocking your view...HMMM?

Oh Miss Morgan, Please stop me.:~0"

Ha! :-)
No, I prefer you keep going. You said what I wanted to say, only you said it better. Your description pretty much sums up the group at VP.

7:20 AM

Why, Thankie Ma'am. But I really said pretty much how I feel...for now.

I do, however, agree that Vox is smart. And yes, at times he can be entertaining and humorous.

I like the guy and I read him just about every day, but he and I see things differently on a lot of his posts.

Spacebunny...well I just love her to pieces...bless her sweet little heart. No, it's TRUE!:~0

As far as his Dad is concerned, I agree with your assessment of the situation but, there's certainly enough of the rebel in me to hope he makes a clean getaway, since he's already "made the leap" as it were.

I know you probably disagree and that's fine, if you do. Just please don't beat me too badly..HA!

Anyway. I like what you've done to the place and hope to chat with ya often. I'm definately putting YOU in my Favorites.

Love your avatar, btw;~))

OK. I'm outta here.

JohnR said...

Beale will surrender eventually, a settlement will be negotiated, and this will blow over.

Maybe a year in jail.

The events of the past month only make this post look snarky.

I think you're gloating.

JohnR

Morgan said...

JohnR, I'm not gloating, simply observing and pointing out what I see as a ridiculous bit of spin by Vox. I would have made the observations regardless, as I've done before. Besides, given how Vox enjoys skewering others, I'm sure he can take my observations. In the spirit of Vox's sense of fun we could even give his dad a nickname: Me-So-Scared.

A year in jail? Wow, if he's running to avoid that then that makes Me-So-Scared look even more stupid.

Morgan said...

"I know you probably disagree and that's fine, if you do. Just please don't beat me too badly..HA!"

I'll keep it under 20 lashes. This time. ;-)

Anyway. I like what you've done to the place and hope to chat with ya often. I'm definately putting YOU in my Favorites.

Thank you. I feel honored.

Love your avatar, btw;~))

Thanks again. My daughter took that a couple of months ago. Since she got her digital camera she's become the family papparazzi.

JohnR said...

They want the money more than they want him in jail.

He would just look like a martyr, tax cheats aren't generally given long sentances.

JohnR

You ignored the part about the 'events of the past month'. I noted that you and PL seem to have had a falling out and de-linked each other. Now apparently, PL and Bane have had a falling out over what I don't know. This is why I stay on the sidelines most of the time. It really is pointless to join in most of the Internet blog nonsense.

Russ said...

Me-So-Scared?!! Oh-No-You-Didn't!

SSSLLLAAAAAAMMMM!

Now THAT's Entertainment!

Morgan said...

"Now apparently, PL and Bane have had a falling out over what I don't know. This is why I stay on the sidelines most of the time. It really is pointless to join in most of the Internet blog nonsense. "

Good grief. I've been out doing other stuff for the past few days and haven't checked in to see the drama. I just did and can only say I'm not surprised. Bane and PL both project completely false images of themselves and try very hard to convince others that they are something other than what's underneath the Web image they've cultivated.
Anytime you try to deal with the "real" person, it quickly gets ugly. In the case of Bane and PL, she dropped her guard and finally confronted him as the goofy, hypersensitive flake she is and demanded an accounting from the insecure wannabe that he is.
It was bound to happen. I just wonder if she regrets buying stuff to make him like her.

"It really is pointless to join in most of the Internet blog nonsense."

It is, but I think for Bane and PL, the blogosphere *is* their world. They can pretend to be something they aren't in the blogosphere, and slam or ban anyone who dares confront them with The Truth.

Me, I enjoy blogging but it's a supplement to my life, not my life entire.

Morgan said...

JohnR, one more thing. I find it especially amusing that PL accused Bane of violating her "boundaries." She did the same thing to me once after I commented on a bizarre post she wrote about this guy who refused to attend an opening she'd invited him to. She was so angry she devoted an entire spiel to how this guy had no charcter, etc. etc. when all he'd done was no show up. It was real psycho-stalker-girlfriend stuff and I think that's when I started looking at her a little more objectively. So I posted that maybe the guy wasn't bad. Maybe he just didn't want to go to her opening. We had an email exchange along those lines and the next thing you know she's whining about how I've violated her "boundaries." But for PL - like Bane - what's out of bounds is being told the truth.
When Bane was completely honest with her, she thought she could slip back into her persona and bring him back in line with a condescending, school-marmish rebuke. It was strategically stupid for her to think that would work on someone like Bane. And besides, she'd already exposed herself as an hysteric. If the email was accurate what he wrote to her was NOT a threat. Bane has threatened me and I found it amusing. She flaked out.
I think the two of them should hook up. They seem perfect for each other.

JohnR said...

Well, she does seem smitten (or was) with him, so maybe they should hook-up.

Although I must admit I went through Bane's site trying to figure out the problem but I can't find anything, so I don't know what the dustup is/was about.

JohnR

Morgan said...

"Well, she does seem smitten (or was) with him, so maybe they should hook-up."

PL's lonely and alone. I'm afraid she's smitten with any man who pays attention to her. During our brief correspondence she thought everyone of Vox's posts held secret messages just for her. Bless her heart.

"Although I must admit I went through Bane's site trying to figure out the problem but I can't find anything, so I don't know what the dustup is/was about."

Let's just say this one was particularly amusing. Sometime back Bane posted these drawings of Jesus that were horribly cheesy. Given that they were horribly cheesy they were perfectly reflective of Bane's low-rent taste. One illustration of a tatooed Jesus would have been quite at home in a Christian gay bar, if such a place existed.
Well, if nothing Pretty Lady has an eye for art and apparently couldn't restrain herself from giving her less than gracious opinion of Bane's taste in "art."
Bane, who knows he's low-rent, hates it when people tell him so and was furious. He apparently threatened to ban her for insulting his Bad Jesus Pictures and the rest is hilarious history.
I hate it that they've broken up. I enjoyed her presence at his blog, especially the way he tried to pretend he understood how she talked over his head. Personally, I think that's why he really got rid of her. He was flattered to have a true intellectual contributing to his blog; it make him look good. But at the same time, that very intelligence intimidated the hell out of him. That's really why he banned her, I think. For all his bluster, Bane was afraid of Pretty Lady.

Anonymous said...

How sad. I've read both their blogs and got the impression that they were both reaching out for affirmation missing in the real world. Anybody who spends the amount of time PL and Bane do in pursuing affection and validation need to ask themselves what it is about normal human interaction that scares them so much.

Morgan said...

I'm not sure if that's entirely fair, Anon. Anyone who blogs hopes for feedback. I suppose that's a form of affirmation. I've read posts from some bloggers who say they don't care if their blogs are read, but I don't really buy that at all. What's the use of having an online journal or daily commentary if no one's reading it?

I enjoy reading the comments generated by my blog. But if this were my only link to the real world I'd seriously think about getting some help. The Internet can't take the place of real-world activities, work, friends and family. Or at least it shouldn't.

Tax Man said...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&q=America%3A+Freedom+to+Fascism

There is no law that says you have to file a 1040.

Worse than that, nobody cares.