Saturday, May 20, 2006

A poem that came to me


Advice along The Way
by Morgan

Said the Lord, “There you are
I’ve been looking for you.
Why’d you stop on the path?”

“Cause I’ve rocks in my shoe.”

I held up my soul, feeling quite blue
“They’re making me stumble. What can I do?”

“Take them out,” said the Lord.

“I did! But then
the next thing I know
they’re back in again.”

I emptied my shoe of vice, greed and pride
“How can I keep going when they keep getting inside?”
I said as I sat and continued to grumble.
“These rocks in my shoe are making me stumble.”

He laughed. “There’s no use sitting and balking
When the point of the journey is for you to keep walking.”

“I know.” I replied. But I feel like a wimp
When the other travelers point out my limp.”

“Ignore them,” said he. “They’re limping too.
They just don’t notice because they’re staring at you.”

“Now get up, my child, and keep moving forward
And stay focused on what you’re heading toward
Your soul’s a bit bruised
But the rocks cannot break it
A soul needn’t be perfect for me to still take it.”

158 comments:

dlkjdfsa said...

soul down empty now

flesh blood bones teeth my mind gone

soul clown in ether

Morgan said...

I'm afraid of clowns.

dlkjdfsa said...

:)

thimscool said...

I'm afraid of ether. There is nothing more hopeless and depraved than a man in the midst of an ether binge.

Morgan said...

Do they even use ether for anything anymore? I remember years ago they did. Now people use a different kind of either - antidepressents.

Morgan said...

"Now people use a different kind of either - antidepressents."

Not "either." I meant "ether." I think I'm one of the few people at work not on either a sleep aid or an anti-depressent.

dlkjdfsa said...

ether - http://www.weeklyuniverse.com/skies/skies11.htm

bether - http://wind.securenet-server.net/~galgitr6/Meme/Gravity%20Web%20Excerpt.htm

Morgan said...

I know, Southside Rabbitslayer. I was just being flip. Ether was also that stuff they used to hold over your nose to knock you out.
Didn't you ever watch any old movies?

dlkjdfsa said...

I watched "Fear and loathing in Las Vegas" They have a great ether scene. Ether going into a casino waiting for the mescaline to kick in.

Morgan said...

Well, it's nice to know that ether still has a place in contemporary society. I can't think of a better endorsement than a Johnny Depp movie. ;-)

dlkjdfsa said...

I love the description of it in the movie it goes something like this, 'Ether is the perfect drug for Las Vegas because they love a drunk. With ether one has virtually no control of all muscle and hand eye coordination actions. This is strange because the mind is relatively unaffected and can watch itself behave in such a ridiculous manor.'

Shrubbery said...

That was crap! You stink! Booooooo!

Shrubbery said...

I hate clowns, they're evil.

I have three words for you clown lovers...John Wayne Gacy.

thimscool said...

Interesting links, Southside Rabbitslayer.

The Depp flick wasn't bad, but the book is the real deal. There's no way to capture gonzo without the written word. Even if there was, Depp couldn't pull it off.

"Where the Buffulo Roam" was undoubtedly Bill Murray's greatest role, and not a bad attempt to capture the spirit of gonzo, although Hunter Thompson hated the movie.

Not as bad as he hated Gary Trudeau for the chararcter "Duke" who was supposedly based on Thompson. "If I ever catch that bastard, I'll wring his scrawny little neck," he said.

Good stuff.

mitzibel said...

thimscool---ah,thank you. I was afraid I was going to have to Google the quote to get it right, and then you beat me to it.
I was quite impressed with Bill Murray in that role. I was also more than a little disturbed, though, by the paralells. I thought I was the only one (on this continent, anyway) who acts like that.
I've only shot the one phone, though, and it doesn't count, 'cause it wasn't mine ;)

thimscool said...

Actually I believe the quote was the "depths of an ether binge". Sorry.

Morgan said...

"I have three words for you clown lovers...John Wayne Gacy."

I hear he had friends in crawl spaces.

Morgan said...

"That was crap! You stink! Booooooo! "

What was crap? My poem?

I like my poem.

*sigh*

dlkjdfsa said...

Everyone has an opinion some see crap others see diner.

mitzibel said...

After wading through my mother-in-law's poetry, I thought I was fucking *done*. Not just with rhyming poetry, not just with poetry that glorifies God, but with any damn person that calls themselves a *poet*, myself included.

Thanks for "publishing" something that makes me re-think that stance.

mitzibel said...

just testing.. .

Roland said...

That was a great poem.

What makes it so unpalatable to those who dislike it?
Lack of understanding.

Now, (and keep this quiet) if you took any reference to God out of it, it might be more acceptable. ;)

If anyone who hates God read that previous part and was offended, just spit it out. You don't have to eat what is put in front of you. But, then again, it might be good for you...

Roland said...

“Ignore them,” said he. “They’re limping too.
They just don’t notice because they’re staring at you.”


Have you any idea how closely that parallels the parable of the log and speck?
People might read it and start to understand what Jesus was talking about. Are you crazy! They might find out that they actually like him.

Morgan said...

"People might read it and start to understand what Jesus was talking about. Are you crazy! They might find out that they actually like him."

Thank you, Roland. That's exactly how Jesus is with me - approachable, encouraging and kind. He understands we can't be perfect but is always there saying "Do your best. I love you."

It's a view far different from the cat-on-nine-tails wielding Jesus ready to beat people for their sins. The view of an angry God is essential for people who need to be kept afraid to obey. No, the poem won't likely be appreciated by everyone. Not everyone wants to like Christ. They need afraid of something to worship it.

Thank you also, Mitzibel. I've written poetry since I was a little girl. I've never really done well with free-verse, and my stuff is admittedly simple. But I really enjoy it.

dlkjdfsa said...

"If anyone who hates God "

I definitely do not trust people who hate "God". Anti-god people are like little children that despise the boogie man. Us 0-god people feel like were arguing with a sea of people that don't know the rules of argument. I was in a bar Sunday night trying to explain to some philosopher that the color blue is not subjective. I broke light down for him. I called it radiation visible by humans. I brought up the trinity, rgb. No such luck. Thank god for the ccd.

How much does this god you speak of weigh? r255 g255 b255

Morgan said...

"I was in a bar Sunday night trying to explain to some philosopher that the color blue is not subjective"

Wow. I should hang out at bars more often. Apparently that's where the intellectual conversations are.

The nature of God, though, is an interesting topic. God must feel like a politician, with all the handlers out there spinning his image.

There seems to be a real effort among some right-wing Christians to paint him as a wrathful avenger ready to punish sin. Coincidentally, it's always the "sins" the right wingers find distasteful.

On the other hand some libertines do seem to adopt the image of an Anything Goes version of God.

I think when we open our hearts and minds to God we know what's right and what's wrong. But I don't see God so much as a punisher but as a guide.

Who knows what will happen later...but I think God leads with a whisper, not a whip.

dlkjdfsa said...

Leviticus 26:7

Ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.

Bring it on children of "God" My sword is the word. I am the Southside Rabbitslayer!

dlkjdfsa said...

"What was crap? My poem?

I like my poem."

I like your poem also. I hope you don't mind my haiku.

Morgan said...

"I like your poem also. I hope you don't mind my haiku."

Thank you. And yes, I liked your haiku very much.

"Bring it on children of "God" My sword is the word. I am the Southside Rabbitslayer!"

If you're under assault by an army of Christian bunny rabbits I have no doubt you'll prevail. ;-)

dlkjdfsa said...

Spaghetti monsters

way2much said...

I truly love reading your posts and everyone's comments!

I love your poem. Very inspiring.

I believe God is leading with a gentle nudge and not with that whip either.

I was always taught that God was a punishing God - when I was a teenager and yelled at my mother and then slammed the closet door on my finger, I heard, "See God punished you." But that is because of what she always heard from the nuns that taught her. She changed her ways and I have caught myself from proclaiming the "punishings of God" after something was said or done that was not pleasing to me.

I think the Church changed their stance on that as well as my family. God is a loving God and He will always take you back! Rocks or no rocks!

Morgan said...

Way2Much,

I completely agree. The Bible uses the analogy of a shepherd and his sheep when referring to Jesus and his followers.

"Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me."

The shepherd used the rod and staff go guide the sheep, not to beat them. Frightened sheep can't be led. They scatter when they get nervous. How can you lead anyone who's running away from you.
God is also our Father. Any good parent can tell you that to raise a child to adulthood, you have to give them guidance. Punishment can stop short term disobedience long enough to gain a child's attention, but to become a secure adult a child needs to learn to listen to the parent (the Holy Spirit).

I've never seen one parent point o a well-adjusted young adult and say, "See my son? He's a good kid because I beat him down every chance I got."

No, the parent is proud becuase the child - having left he nest - now respects his Father's teachings *even though he doesn't have to.*

That's Free Will. And the idea of a Punishing God is inconsistent with Free Will.

dlkjdfsa said...

Frightened sheep can easily be manipulated.

Morgan said...

"Frightened sheep can easily be manipulated."

Actually, Southside Rabbitslayer, that's not true. Frightened sheep, while too panicked to heed the shepherd's call, will follow one another off a cliff.

dlkjdfsa said...

Sounds like when they're scared they'll do things they wouldn't normal do. They'll even harm themselves. I bet if you put an m16 in there hooves or strap bombs on there furry chests they would be willing to do what ever it takes to not be scared. The Shepard pulls out a stick and commands them to poison there mind with antilogic. Drink of this poison and your fear will vanish.

Morgan said...

Southside Rabbitslayer, now you sound like one of those anti-God types you claim to eschew. What beef do you have with people who choose to have faith?
It's not the Shepherd who poisons the sheep; He speaks from within. It's the yammering outside voices that are poisonous, including - if you don't mind my saying - people who belittle those who want who listen.
Your saying someone shouldn't follow a chosen spiritual path because *you* find it illogical is just as manipulative and intrusive as someone's criticizing your personal walk, even if it is into nothingness.
As long as they aren't bothering you, what beef can you possibly have against them?

dlkjdfsa said...

Religion condenses down to people making decisions about what they should do and what is subjectively right. We should be unique. That's all the universe asks us to be and we can not help but be it. I worry when a specific species starts making decisions that threaten the rest of the life on earth. If it were a bacteria I would be concerned to exterminate it. When I find people making huge decisions based on things like faith instead of fact, the system that enables me to exist is threatened. This is what a person that is scared acts like. I will do anything to keep my home and the ecological system that supports it alive. Decisions should never be based on faith because faith is subjective. Fact. Science is not, Fact. Life likes to live. Fact. Peace is good. Fact. The religious are causing war. War is bad. Fact.

JohnR said...

Soutside: Read Commandments 5 through 10 and tell me the objective argument against them?


Remember ignore the first four.

Thanks

JohnR

Morgan said...

Southside Rabbitslayer,
People cause war. Religion is just one of the excuses. I'd argue power is the real reason.

Yes, religion does result in disagreement and nosy people trying to tell others how to live. But Robert, in America we're free to disagree and the fact that we don't live in a theocracy is a testimony to the fact that people value free will above a National God should serve as a clue that religion is being kept in its proper place.


"Religion condenses down to people making decisions about what they should do and what is subjectively right. We should be unique."

And how is what you're proposing different? Robert, you sound awfully close to advocating a ban on religion. And what of people who want to openly practice. Would you throw them in prison? Have public executions to frighten people into your anti-religious mindset?
You say people should make decisions about what they should do, and that people should be unique. But if in their heart someone *wants* to follow the teachings of Jesus or Buddha or whoever, and seek fellowship with others who do, for you to say that choice isn't "unique" enough is contradictory.

"I will do anything to keep my home and the ecological system that supports it alive."

Well, then baby, you do that. I will defend to the death your right to follow your own path. That is how strongly I embrace the concept of freedom. You might want to try embracing the concept by looking the other way as people practice their faith. I hate to tell you this, but no one really cares that you don't like how they live.

I get this crazy impression from reading your comments that you think you may be just a teensy bit more evolved than some of us silly types who consider spirituality an important part of our lives.

That's just fine, but remember that evolution is a process, and that where we're going may lead us to the Higher Enlightenment you've found.

Now, you wouldn't want to knock us off course, would you, Robert? Of course not! A guy who believes in individualism and has figured all this out on his own surely can give others credit to be able to do the same.

So step back. Breathe. And let us find our way without humiliating us as we walk. Remember. Such rudeness is distasteful whoever's doing it, and frankly I have a hard time telling your sanctimonious bullying apart from the type of bullying you claim to oppose.

dlkjdfsa said...

5-9 are redundant. Treat your neighbor like you would want to be treated.

10. "and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass" Wikipedia

I shale desire what ever my imagination wants. I have high goals. May I be judged by my decisions and actions not whose ass I like. I will do my best to keep life keepin' on.

dlkjdfsa said...

"And how is what you're proposing different? "

Facts are different than fiction.

"Free will above a National God should serve as a clue that religion is being kept in its proper place."

You would see this much differently if you didn't believe in god. In god we trust. One nation under god. I would love to see "One nation under logic." Free will can not be taken away. Even if one is voluntarily brainwashed they chose not to think. I don't think we should have complete freedom to do whatever we want. I would love to see governments that give jail time for throwing aluminum away or skinning animals alive. I would love to see the end of religious assholes blowing themselves up and nations of people voting for a leader because of what religion they subscribe to. The camo covered bible on the recruiters desk really was a key point in my decision not to join. If there are few atheists in the fox holes there is a good reason for it. Wars can not be fought with logic. Life likes to live. Defense is logical which means fight when attacked. Sadam did not attack us. It's not allright for our military to cover the earth and our borders are what we really need to worry about. The life on Earth is being threatened. It is time to tell the difference between dreamland and reality. I don't propose forcing anyone to stop believing in what ever fantasy they want. I just don't want them making decisions that effect the planet based on them.

I'm a weirdo artist but I know when to drop the imaginaryland and use logic to make important decisions like morality and laws.

dlkjdfsa said...

I'm getting beat up on the atheists blogs to... :)

Morgan said...

"You would see this much differently if you didn't believe in god. In god we trust. One nation under god. I would love to see "One nation under logic."

Even if I didn't believe in God, slogans on money wouldn't bother me. It doesn't say, "One Nation Under Christ." God can be anything. Or Nothing. Now you're just being a silly whiner.

"I just don't want them making decisions that effect the planet based on them."

I'd argue that many people of faith feel exactly as you do, Robert. Religion isn't your problem. Quakers are against war. Many Christians are pro-environment, even a growing number of evangelicals who are calling their brethren on the carpet over what "stewardship" really means. You go on a rant about all the things that are wrong with the world and then imply that getting rid of religion would "fix" it.
But if you banned religion tomorrow, materialism wouldn't end because more people worship money than worship God, even if they don't admit it. People would still throw away alumimum. The seal hunts would continue. Wars would still be fought.

I think you're taking a lazy man's way out on this. You've got gripes on a lot of fronts. But it would be exhausting to go out there and champion all those causes, or even some of them. So instead, you say, "Oh, religion is to blame."
Flailing your arms and squawking at one Boogey Man - God - is a lot easier than devoting your life to fixing one or two problems. It's got to be easier than starting, say, an educational program for recycling or putting yourself in harms way to save seals.

You actually remind me of a couple of people I know whose "activism" is limited to bitching about religion. But, baby, without doing more it's the equivelant of pew-sitting.

Don't tell me what you *don't* want people to do. Tell me what you're going to do to make the world better.

The only person you can control is yourself. And that's the way it should be.

If you think you're making a difference by acting as you are, you're the one living in a fantasy world.

dlkjdfsa said...

I'd argue....worship money than worship God, even if they don't admit it. People would still throw away aluminum. The seal hunts would continue. Wars would still be fought.

I am somewhat of a hypocrite because I don't came the atheists viewpoint more than the fact that they don't believe in God. I don't want to be the anti-anything. That's why I created Infinitology. It is a belief system that rejects decisions on things that are illogical. I have faith that zero does not exist and I know I will never be able to prove it. I have tried to be a "good" person though. I've had a recycling symbol tattooed on my body for ten years now. I have lived using the least amount of resources possible. I thought that changing myself is all I needed to do. I needed to do some planting. Thoughts are seeds and that's what blogs are, robertsutton.net is turning five years old! Glory!

Morgan said...

"I am somewhat of a hypocrite because I don't came the atheists viewpoint more than the fact that they don't believe in God. I don't want to be the anti-anything. That's why I created Infinitology. It is a belief system that rejects decisions on things that are illogical. I have faith that zero does not exist and I know I will never be able to prove it."

Well, good for you. Now you have a religion, too, even though you don't want to call it that. But you can't expect to bully people into buying into your philosophy. It's been my experience that people comfortable with their personal philosophies like to share, but do so with an acceptance that their path might not be for someone else.

"I have tried to be a "good" person though."

Robert, all you can do is your personal best. Getting wrapped up in what other people believe or what you think they should believe is going to distract from any personal mission.

Personally, I think that is why so many people invest so much time in dissecting others' lives. It's preferable to the work of leaving their own positive legacy.

"I thought that changing myself is all I needed to do. I needed to do some planting."

Planting is good, Robert, but be a respectful gardener. Don't plow my garden under because you think your own flowers would look better growing there. Offer me your seeds, with respect, not with so much arrogance. If you're kind, you'll find the ground more fertile. Right now you're just coming across as an asshole.

Roland said...

Thoughts are seeds

Hey! Did you get that from my halsoscan comment system?
I am honored. (No kidding!)

But, I will side with Morgan on this. When she said, "I'm afraid of clowns." I couldn't arg...

What that wasn't it.

Oh, now I remember, "You are being far more religious than Morgan or I"
I believe 100% that Jesus died to free us to live as you are wanting to live Robert.
But, I cannot ram that down anothers throat. (I've tried, it wasn't pretty, and I hate what I did.)

I 100% believe that your infinitology is far closer to God than many "Christians" idea of God.
(One of the reasons I like you)

I also know that when push comes to shove, if there is a God (someone who created everything, including us) He wouldn't have done it for the purposes of cruel entertainment. (I know you think that, but do you not lvove the creations you make?)

He wants us to share what He has.

*Nuts! I gotta go put kids to bed. I will come back in an hour or so.*

Anonymous said...

"I pledge elegance to myself, to my ancestors and to my family and my friends, as a proud member of the human race, I pledge to uphold reason and the principles of logic, against all forms of terror superstition and injustice, preserving the earth and it's resources, one people ever evolving in the spirit of friendly competition towered a future much brighter than it's past." Alleee

dlkjdfsa said...

An atheist pledge on Vox Populi.

Morgan said...

First of all, the writer should have used spell check. "Elegance" and "allegience" are two entirely different things.
Second of all, you could just as easily substitute the word "love" for "logic" and keep the entire pledge intact.
Robert, you're *still* coming across as an ass. Do you not ever even consider listening to people, or are you so entirely full of yourself that you find it impossible?

eaglewood said...

I was going to post something different but after reading your discussion with the rabbitslayer I am going to have to give you a hearty AMEN.

I have seen him espouse his thoughts elsewhere, and it is nothing more than his own brand of religion.

Robert,
You claim that faith is illogical. Can you explain why that is? I take it on faith that each time I turn the key in my car it will start the motor. Until it does it is only faith that it will happen. Now that is a faith that can have empirical evidence to back it up. I have faith in a G_d that has shown more than enough evidence of His existence. You have faith in god (best I can remember) as an uncaring force that has created a universe by chance. How are we any different when it comes to having faith? So far I have seen someone leaning on his own understanding which like mine is at best flawed.

dlkjdfsa said...

My apologies madam Morgan.

dlkjdfsa said...

You claim that faith is illogical. Can you explain why that is?

Because you believe that things that are dead or never alive are alive. They are not. The dead are dead. Those that have never been alive can't even be dead. F%*k! I suck at spelling!

Morgan said...

"My apologies madam Morgan."

No need to apologize, Robert. I'm not mad at you. I just think when you ratchet up the rhetoric with all this bullying, any idea you may have gets lost in the arrogance of your attitude.

You are quite free to interpret the experiences of your life as the result of happenstance or whatever. Eaglewood and I happen to believe God is real and active in our lives.

Neither of us can definitively prove our point. You have faith that God doesn't exist. We have faith that he does.

It's OK to be different, to disagree. All we can do is share our viewpoints and agree to disagree, all in the spirit of love. It's really all we should do, if we truly respect one another.

thimscool said...

Morgan,

Do you believe that God is active in my life?

dlkjdfsa said...

I can only hope. I can only have faith that the religious start becoming peaceful with there brotherly decisions. I pray that the scientists don't become too arrogant and bite more than we can chew in there rushed efforts to create megawattz and 75mph.

Morgan said...

Thimscool, yes.

There are countless little blessings every day that I credit God for bestowing - the pretty way all the leaves turn their silvery sides up before a storm, the taste of my morning cup of tea, the "I love yous," I get from those close to me. Every breath. Every moment. It all comes from The Source.

I don't constantly *think* about God, but I constantly feel the threads that bind me to him in a constant unending prayer of gratitude that runs unspoken, like a current beneath the surface.

But I'm no more blessed than you, and you get the same things I do. How could I *not* believe God is active in your life?

Morgan said...

Southside Rabbitslayer, we all want the same thing. We just have to learn to work together. It's going to take more than hope, I think.
The trick is to pick a starting point and do something rather than just talk about it, and start with the understanding that while our contributions will likely be just a blip on the radar of human existence, it will be better than doing nothing. And it will certainly be better than ripping one another apart over questions of faith.

dlkjdfsa said...

The Source is infinite. Glory! For real not in the atheist mocking sort of way.

dlkjdfsa said...

"We just have to learn to work together."

We need to become one cause. We need peace and people that believe that peace is possible.

thimscool said...

Beyond the countless little blessings, what of the life, death, and afterlife type of activity?

Does God shape our lives and circumstances like a director? Or is it purely illustrative? Or random yet steady unfolding an athiest's cold reality?

What about the space where the rubber meets the road, biblically speaking?

Roland said...

The Source is infinite.

That is why I think you believe in God, Robert.

You fight it, and embrace it at the same time. I've been there (honestly), and it stinks.

What if the dead, are only separated from their bodies at death?
What if they are still alive spiritually? (not religiously)

What if?

dlkjdfsa said...

I'm a weird atheist. I don't see my life unfolding in a cold way. I feel as though life is more illuminating, more significant, more interesting than any sun could ever be. WE give meaning to earth. WE give meaning to the universe. WE are one with the source.

thimscool said...

Ah yes. Have you given much thought to the entropic death of the universe?

Increasingly separated blackholes in a vanishing radiation bath and an ever-expanding vacuum (ether) whose fluctuations become less consequential with each passing moment for ever and ever.

The period for which life existed in the universe, in all the galaxies around all the stars, would be insignificant compared to the eternity of cold death.

Yum.

Roland said...

Why is it that atoms (the stable ones) don't decay?
Everything else does.
Where do those pesky little packet of energy get their energy?
Do WE uphold them?
Do WE make them continue to exist?

Those little atoms that look so solid from far away, are mostly empty space.
It's not exactly like they are building blocks. They are little bundles of energy. What keeps them from running down?

Roland said...

Oh yeah, Robert.
Did you get a facelift or something?
You look different somehow...

dlkjdfsa said...

I'm a weirdo for sure. I envisioned a philosophy about the end of the universe. It is cold. It keeps expanding until it "touches" the edge of AbsoluteZero. At this point since Zero can not exist a bang happens again. Once "big" has no more relativity this nearly nothing explodes "again" No beginning no end. And end only comes to things that have a beginning. Like this universe and like Us. Glory for real. It is such an honor being alive. Being able to see, to hear, to feel. I love being able to comprehend complex concepts such as the shape of the earth. I love intelligence.

Roland said...

Robert "Peace is good. Fact. The religious are causing war. War is bad. Fact."

Why do you think Jesus is called the Prince of Peace?

Note that the RELIGIOUS are causing wars.
(I know, the Old Testament has plenty of killing and wanton death)
I think the Old Testament shows that God is tough, sometimes it seems too tough.

But, He is showing a better way.
I can't explain all the why's and wherefore's, but I know who can.
Look to the one who is holding all the cards. (what makes the atoms hold together...)

To be honest, I get fed up with too many people, including myself.
If I had that kind of power, Noah would not have made it through the flood. But, then again, I'm only human. :)

eaglewood said...

Robert,

You still have not shown why faith is illogical. You have shown why you “think” a particular faith is in your estimation illogical. You have given NO empirical evidence to back up your claim. Your statement is just as much faith as my claim the G_d has always been. He exists outside of time as He created it for our benefit. Trying to attach human reasoning to a being that defies all human reason is in its essence illogical.

Roland said...

Robert - "It keeps expanding until it "touches" the edge of AbsoluteZero. At this point since Zero can not exist a bang happens again."

Problem with that is, it can NEVER touch zero.

I hate to say it, but try again. The theory, while appealing, is flawed.

thimscool said...

Southside Rabitslayer,

Here is a link that may interest you:
Lords of the Universe

It describes how to beat entropic death.

dlkjdfsa said...

Why do you think Jesus is called the Prince of Peace?

Because he coined the do unto others philosophy.

Trying to attach human reasoning to a being that defies all human reason is in its essence illogical.

A being is something that has a finite body. I can not attach logic to a superbeing.

Problem with that is, it can NEVER touch zero.

That's why there are quotes around touch. If "it" could touch zero, if that were possible, I would believe in God in a heartbeat.

Roland said...

Problem with that is, it can NEVER touch zero.

Since, it can't, how can we get that Big Bang? It will never reach it. Unless, you think we will it to happen???

Roland said...

Because he coined the do unto others philosophy.

But He also claimed to be the creator of all things.

So is he a really great guy, or completely nuts?

If he is completely nuts, why do you listen to ANYTHING that comes from him?

eaglewood said...

Robert,

I think you are arguing semantics here. You still have not answered the question at hand.
You have put forth a theory (admittedly of your own design) that requires as much faith if not more than mine. Your faith is that of the nihilist. There is nothing beyond this life. Mine is one of hope and eternal destiny. I have the hope of something beyond my short existence here. Lets just for the moment say you are right. What have I lost? I lived my life with hope and joy. I have enjoyed the life I have lived. You on the other hand have nothing but oblivion to look forward to. Where is the hope and the joy in that? If that were all I had to look forward to I would be looking for the way out and the best way to take as many as I could with me when I went.

Roland,
I will dub the new look by Robert his "Elrond" look.

dlkjdfsa said...

I believe that I can't know and do everything, which includes being able to describe things that are outside of time. I think the big bang will happen again because it happened before. I think that before and after are only relevant within the transitions of infinite mass(beginning) to infinite energy(end). I think the bang is natural because it has already happened in nature. I believe. I believe we livings things are riding on the edge of what is. Infinity is what is. When we make choices we create what is, that is a supreme honor. The choices we could have made but didn't are "owned" by "Zero". Zero is not. Infinity is. One was. 8:01

Roland said...

The "Elrond" look, hmmm...

I was thinking of doing up my picture differently, maybe I should go with the "innocent looking duckie with sharp poisonous teeth"?

On a completely unserious note,

"Morgan, why do you fear the clown?"

Is it like a Jack Handey thing? Was your dad offed by clowns or something?

Or do you fear all of us clowns that post comments here?
Hey, I think that's it!

"Fear the ear!"
(from my new favorite movie)

Roland said...

Okay Robert.

What if "Infinity" is a person?

dlkjdfsa said...

Eaglewood, I don't have any children but I hope that I can live on through the worlds children. I vision a long life for life on earth. I hope to have my paintings hanging on peoples walls for as long as life is possible on this planet. I hope a 100 thousand years from now our descendents will be able to be effected by my work and the work of all the creative people in our rich history. Creating art is the work of G-d.

dlkjdfsa said...

Infinity can not be a person because a person has a birth a life and a death. I do however believe that each moment is infinite. It makes my brain sweat. 1/2 1/4 1/8 1/16 1/32 I don't live forever in the moment. Living requires time to move. I live on by how I chose to string those moments together.

Roland said...

Just to be a bit more pointed, again:

Were you there when the Big Bang happened?
Did you see it?

Since you can't prove it happened, I can't believe in it.

Roland said...

Infinity can not be a person because a person has a birth a life and a death.

Infinity is bigger than moments. It encompasses all moments.
In order to do that all moments must be inside Infinity.

How does that preclude Infinity being an omnipotent, omniscient being?
And not just a concept?

dlkjdfsa said...

Science can "see" up to the first few seconds of the bang. The actual bang is not well understood because the laws of physics brake down. We can see the effect of the bang by the Doppler effect of light we see coming into our telescopes. I believe the laws of physics break down at the big bang because "at" the big bang time ceases to exist. The laws of physics require time. I believe that is why science has yet to solve all the puzzles. I think there is one puzzle that we will not be able to solve. I don't think we will ever understand zero-time. I think we need faith in the "right place."

BUZZZZZ

dlkjdfsa said...

Infinity is as big as zero is small.

Roland said...

Science can "see" up to the first few seconds of the bang.

Um... where is this information located?

And, to be honest, science can date things to millions of years ago. (Need to throw out tons of data to the contrary, but it can be made to look like it)

You know that the guy who "created" life in a controlled environment with some sparks was filtering out things that would prohibit life from forming?
To me that just shows one more proof of a designer being involved.

Roland said...

You know, I am overly tired and becoming giddy at the fact that when Morgan wakes up and checks her blog, she is going to go into laughing hysterics that we left so many comments.
:D

Oh, I gotta get to bed.

Thanks Robert.

Have a good night.

And even though you don't like to hear it,

"God Bless"

eaglewood said...

Robert,

You have not answered the question directly, but your comments have shown that what you believe takes faith. There is no empirical evidence to back up your claims. By your own admission faith is illogical.

I will now ask a different question. You claim that you hope to live through your children and their children so on and so forth. You hope to have what is known as a legacy. That is all fine and good. Tell me what would you say to the parents who lost a child before the child took his first breath? A child the parents interacted with for 38 weeks and then inexplicably passed away. What legacy does that child have? What did that child create that would make a legacy for him? I know what I would tell them. How about you?

dlkjdfsa said...

Big Bang

The Big Bang marks the instant at which the universe began, when space and time came into existence and all the matter in the cosmos started to expand. Amazingly, theorists have deduced the history of the universe dating back to just 10-43 second (10 million trillion trillion trillionths of a second) after the Big Bang. Before this time all four fundamental forces—gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces—were unified, but physicists have yet to develop a workable theory that can describe these conditions.

BUZZZ

Sorry Morgan.

Roland said...

Had to look up the refutation for the theory I knew would come, before I went to bed.

http://redshift.vif.com/JournalFiles/V09NO2PDF/V09N2tvf.PDF

And clean up all that sawdust. Morgan would have a fit if she saw the mess we made! ;)

Roland said...

Oh, one more thing. See all the stuff around you. When you look at it, just remember the Matrix:

"There is no spoon."

dlkjdfsa said...

E, I would tell them that we are all unique and to be proud of it. I would tell them that no one has to know there name for there effects to echo throughout the universe until the end of time. I would tell them that death "is" a blissful nothing, no matter what there life was like. I would tell them not to expect a legacy but always strive to have a good one. I would tell them that every life is the center of the universe because the universes center is subjective. I would tell them that sometimes life sucks. I would tell them that they should always remember there experience of pregnancy because it did effect the parents and to try and remember it as a beautiful time.

I would feel for there loss of some one that was loved and how unfortunate it is that there child didn't get to experience more. It's sad for parents to outlive there children. No question.

dlkjdfsa said...

"There is no spoon."

There is only +spoon and -spoon . No spoon does not exist.

Roland said...

Robert - "There is only +spoon and -spoon . No spoon does not exist."

Go read the link I left.

There is a contradiction between the plus and minus spoons and the Big Bang THEORY.

JohnR said...

"Religion causes most wars."

Man, that is so old it is hairy.

Most wars are/were caused over scarce resources and land.

How did religion cause Viet Nam, Korea, WWI and II, Civil War, Mexican/American War, War of 1812, War for Independence?

American Indians fought each other long before the white man ever got here.

Were their war religious, or being fought over resources like hunting grounds and water?

JohnR

dlkjdfsa said...

religion:
the service and worship of God or the supernatural

I have yet to know a "Nation" that has joined together in the rejection of any belief in the supernatural. Granted one of the most discussing wars was run by Hitler who didn't believe in God but he did believe in the supernatural. He believed that all men could be superhuman. That is supernatural and he was delusional to think other wise.

As long as man finds ways to separate themselves from nature the thought that we all are brothers and the animals are our cousins, will continue to divide life up into imaginary supernatural groups. I believe if no God existed in the mind of men we would look differently at "our" limited resources and space. Limited resources are not gifts from god, they are natures tests for intelligent life. We would see that if we truly want sustainable life we need to focused all of our energy on developing sustainable energy.

Over population is without doubt the greatest problem man is facing. It is the core from which nearly all physical problems stem. Most religions seem to encourage massive reproduction. I think religion needs this to infuse there belief into the future with children in numbers. The native Americans were religious because they believed in Spirits, the supernatural kind.

We are fooling ourselves to think that there is a separation of Church and State. There are countless references to a monotheistic God in the USA system. Until we have a NWO that worships the Natural not the Beyond Natural, I fear we are doomed. I know my philosophy is "out there." I know there are most likely errors within it. I'm trying to do the impossible, disprove god. Things can only be proved not disproved and as long as your team is using the number of ridges on a banana as proof I find it difficult to debate. The "impossible" is supernatural and only exists as a concepts in our mind, It's the only weapon I've been able to find to battle God arguments. Fire with Fire. My fiction is better than yours because I have skimmed the spaghetti monsters from the raft :D

Your link was trumped Roland.

dlkjdfsa said...

Please switch proved and disproved in previous paragraph.

Morgan said...

It appears I cannot leave you guys alone together overnight. I take the evening to catch up on my reading and come back to find the floor littered with sawdust amid the ongoing construction of this tower of Babble. ;-)

Of course, if folks are to babble on about something, religion is as good as anything else, and often more interesting besides.
Gosh, so much to cover, but I will start from the ground floor up.

Robert says:
"As long as man finds ways to separate themselves from nature the thought that we all are brothers and the animals are our cousins, will continue to divide life up into imaginary supernatural groups."

That sounds a bit like animism, Robert, which is just another type of religion. As a Christian, I believe there is something divine in animals as well, and while I do not consider them my equals I do believe them worthy of care and respect.

It frustrates me that you continue to ignore what people are telling you. I pointed out yesterday that your concern for the environment is not at odds with Christianity. Many Christians are concerned for the environment, including a growing number of evangelicals.
Did you miss that statement, or did you just purpuosefully ignore it because it didn't fit into your stereotypical view of others?
My family and I personally strive to live a sustainable lifestyle; it's not easy to do, especially when one has to travel for work. But we can all do the best we can. We choose to use only what we need, live in as small as space as we can, grow and eat organic food, etc...

What I'm trying to say is that you don't "own" this type of lifestyle. You didn't discover it. And you need to acknowledge that a person doesn't have to agree with you to practice it.

"We are fooling ourselves to think that there is a separation of Church and State. There are countless references to a monotheistic God in the USA system."

This is unavoidable in a nation founded by religious men on largely religious principles. But this is not a theorcracy. Perhaps you need to live in a theocracy until you can determine the difference. That would likely put an end to your whining. Mentions of god are one thing, but no one here is required to be a Christian. The fact that you feel free to write what you write may serve as your first clue, should you ever become savvy enough to buy it.

"I know there are most likely errors within it. I'm trying to do the impossible, disprove god."

I don't debate your right to try to do the impossible, only the cowardice it takes to do so. If you were take the energy you're using to do what you know can't be done, and use it to do the possible: make a positive change in the world, I would buy the argument that you care.

But Robert, I don't think your motivation has anything to do with making the planet a better place. I think it's all about getting attention for Robert.

Morgan said...

"Religion causes most wars."

Man, that is so old it is hairy."

Oh, I agree, John R. Wars are fought for power. Even wars in the name of God are fought over power. After all, someone has to hold positions of power in religions, so if one religion prevails, it's going put power into the hands of its leaders.

Morgan said...

"Does God shape our lives and circumstances like a director? Or is it purely illustrative? Or random yet steady unfolding an athiest's cold reality?"

Luke,
I don't believe in predestination. I do believe we are given special gifts that enable us to help humanity, and that we are regularly given opportunities to develop and share those gifts. I believe God puts us in the path of people who can either help us, teach us, learn from us or recieve our help. I don't think anything happens by accident, but I don't think our actions are pre-determined. I believe there is an interdependency - a meshing - with all of humanity that we are meant to see and experience. I believe that is the purpose of Love, to bring us all together in Him.

dlkjdfsa said...

First I would like to say that I am glad I live in a country that was wise enough to include freedom of speech in the base law system. Non the less, censorship still exists and is growing. Who are the men on the board and how are do they determine what pictures and words will be XXX. I don't claim to own anything more than my life. I didn't invent Zero, One or Infinity. The words were just lying in front of me and I scooped them up. I didn't discover the concepts, the thinking men of the past did. Natural man. I just painted them all on a canvas and call the collection something that is more than the parts.

"This is unavoidable in a nation founded by religious men on largely religious principles"

I am only against religious principles that use fiction as fact. That is a dangerous world. I embrace do onto others as you would have them do unto yourself. Maybe someday I will be able to drop this belief and live for only me, it would be in a much fuzzier place.

"I don't think your motivation has anything to do with making the planet a better place. I think it's all about getting attention for Robert."

This place can only get better

dlkjdfsa said...

"After all, someone has to hold positions of power in religions, so if one religion prevails, it's going put power into the hands of its leaders."

Power what a word.

Morgan said...

"I am only against religious principles that use fiction as fact. That is a dangerous world. I embrace do onto others as you would have them do unto yourself."

I'm sure I won't be the first to notice the irony between these two sentences. You bemoan the "fiction" of religion and then quote a principle that's the bedrock of more than one religion.

Robert, I wasn't trying to belittle you with the last statement, simply knock you out of the orbit you've created around yourself.

Criticizing everyone else's views and posting links to Web sites is no way to leave a legacy. You aren't trying to reach people, you're trying to intellectually subjugate them in an argument that neither side can win.

Why spend our life wasting time like that? We're here only a short time. And there's so much that needs to be done.

JohnR said...

Southside: What kind of nature are you talking about?

Scenic vistas, or real nature which is brutal and unforgiving.

The lion doesn't have mercy on the antelope. She wants to eat.

If we lived in a state of nature and I came across Morgan and Larry, I would do everything I could to kill Larry(sorry Morgan) and have my way, repeatedly, with Morgan and her double Ds.

Then I would make her my mate as doubtless some guy did before Larry did. And she may be happier with me if I am a better provider than Larry is/was.

I think you need to clarify what you mean by nature.

JohnR

dlkjdfsa said...

I love getting knocked out of my orbit. I hope my legacy is found in the form of Oil on Linen. I hope they are still hanging on walls long after my links have decayed.

Do unto others as you would have them do to you is a fact. It's a fact that if people did this the world's problems would disappear in an instant.

"Why spend our life wasting time like that? We're here only a short time."

Thank god I'm a multitasking hypomanic :)

JohnR said...

Free speech only exists between the govt and individual, not between individuals.

If I post something that Morgan finds offensive she would not be violating any free speech rights I have as no such right exists between Morgan and me. Vox once deleted a post of mine about the function of back tatoos on women. I was not offended thought I thought it was weak of him.

A private company has every right to censor some things. It can make people sign contracts to not reveal propritary information.

Wal-Mart has every right to decide what it will and will not sell. That gives the board the right not to stock items they feel the customer might find offensive.

A musician has every right to record what he wants. But he doesn't have a right to distribution. He cannot force a private business to carry his latest release.

JohnR

thimscool said...

Quick JohnR!.. before Morgan does ban you for writing bad and violent fiction...

Tell us about tatoos on women's backs.

dlkjdfsa said...

real nature which is brutal and unforgiving.

There is only real nature. I don't see the earth as brutal and unforgiving. I think only things that have a conciseness can have these qualities. The laws of physics and the history of life on Earth has nurtured life. It is an ever evolving process and we are proof.

The lion doesn't have mercy on the antelope. She wants to eat.

Killing for food is natural. I have to kill the lettuce every time I make a salad. Man however causes unnecessary pain and suffering in the name of cheap burgers. This is wrong. Wearing fur is not intrinsically wrong but skinning an animal alive, most certainly is.

eaglewood said...

Very interesting answer to my question. Not very comforting, but interesting.

To be honest and to provide full disclosure my wife and I are those parents. That was a real event that happened on April 5,2006.

dlkjdfsa said...

If we lived in a state of nature and I came across Morgan and Larry, I would do everything I could to kill Larry(sorry Morgan) and have my way, repeatedly, with Morgan and her double Ds.

John may I suggest going to see a therapist.... ;

eaglewood said...

"The lion doesn't have mercy on the antelope. She wants to eat."

How about the brutal fact that If a male lion takes over a pride he kills all the cubs that are not his. The lion does not need to eat and the cubs are not sickly. He just wants the kids to be his.

Morgan said...

No one is getting banned, and posts only get deleted if they are spam. I know a joke when I read one.

But to address JohnR's rather colorful and distrubing scenario, I'll only say that the outcome would unikely unfold as he envisions.

Larry is rather fond of The Wife and Her Rack, and as a general rule it's a bad idea to go after something belonging to a man who makes his own bullets.

But even if you did succeed, JohnR, you should know I've had my breasts retrofitted with gun barrels similar to the ones the Fembots sported in Austin Powers. So if Larry didn't get you, I would.

dlkjdfsa said...

E, This is a morality question. Only animals that can pronounce "morality" are servants to it's laws. The lion only understands it's instincts and they tell him to follow evolution. The lion sees a threat from the cubs. The strong will survive. We are the animals that chose to use our brains as weapons. What is the greatest instrument in our mental tool box. Making people believe in things that don't exist so they can be controlled with Power.

Sorry to hear about your baby :(

thimscool said...

Eaglewood, I am so sorry for your loss.

My wife and I lost a 16 week old, and I felt like I'd swallowed a millstone.

If I may interject to answer your question, I believe that your child's most enduring legacy will be the effect that his life had on your hearts and minds. You are now capable of a tenderness, an ability to viscerally apreciate suffering and loss, that you did not posess before this tragedy.

I hope you will be blessed with another child, and that child would no doubt be blessed to have a father like you. If that happens, the legacy of the first child will be transfered to your future child through your gappreciation of how precious and fragile our lives are.

Morgan said...

Southside Rabbitslayer, Eaglewood is right. Humans aren't the only creatures capable of cruelty. Coyotes will kill an entire coop of chickens even if they intend to keep just one. Orcas will torture baby seals to death in a manner that's at least as drawn out and painful as being skinned alive. And yes, male lions who drive another male from the pride will kill every single cub to bring the females back into eostres. Timothy Treadwell devoted his life to studying grizzly bears and truly loved them, but in the end he and his companion were savaged to death by the very animals he sought to protect.

That's not to say we shouldn't preserve and protect nature, but putting it up on some pedestal is unrealistic and patronizing.

John's point is well taken. If we were to follow the laws of nature he would not only come in and kill Larry, but kill my kids so he could have his own with me.

Morgan said...

Eaglewood, I've had two miscarriages. I was sad, but I won't even begin to compare the disappointment to what you went through. I can't imagine losing a child that late in the pregnancy. I've already expressed my condolences for what you and Birdie are going through over at your blog when you first wrote about Samuel's death. But let me reiterate them here.
I think some things are just beyond our understanding.

dlkjdfsa said...

capable of cruelty.

I believe that only animals that understand what cruelty is are capable of committing cruel acts. That is why most children have no regard for less mentally evolved life forms. If a bear is comming at me with rippling muscles and 20 razor daggers I'm going to pull out my 50 caliber Golden Eagle and blow a hole in it's head. There will be nothing cruel about it. Self protection is #1. Species protection is #2. The environments protection is #3.

putting it up on some pedestal is unrealistic and patronizing.

Just lovin' my Pagan roots.

I think some things are just beyond our understanding.

Wisdom from the T.H.

dlkjdfsa said...

"be nice to pagan's, we worship the ground you walk on."
- anonymous

JohnR said...

I use my example to illustrate the state of nature.

I was asking Robert(I hope you don't mind if I use your name) to define nature.

DeSade believed that everything(murder, incest, rape) was permitted because the law was a perversion of nature.

Morgan: thanks for reminding me about the kids, though I think I would have to keep the females to enlarge the tribe.

I have no doubt of Larry's fondness of you and your rack. I will remember not to make a frontal assault(on him.)

JohnR

dlkjdfsa said...

DeSade believed that everything... . .... law was a perversion of nature.

Two bodies are attracted to each other with a ratio that is based on the difference in mass and distance between the two bodies. Law is nature.

Morgan said...

"I believe that only animals that understand what cruelty is are capable of committing cruel acts."

How do you *know* that animals can't comprehend cruelty, Robert? It's a known fact that the great apes feel loss, sorry, and empathy. And yet chimpanzees will chase an interloper down and rip its testicles off.
Orcas live in complex family groups, bolster a sick pod member and yet happily play volleyball with a sea lion pup until the little thing dies of internal injuries.
You think you know what animals think, just because you're human? Think again. I'd wager we'd be surprised if we *really* knew what they thought and felt. I think it would be pretty close to what we think and feel.

"If a bear is comming at me with rippling muscles and 20 razor daggers I'm going to pull out my 50 caliber Golden Eagle and blow a hole in it's head. There will be nothing cruel about it. Self protection is #1. Species protection is #2. The environments protection is #3."

Not if you're truly committed to the law of nature. If you're truly committed to the law of nature you accept your place in the food chain. And if you don't want to end up as bear chow, or end up in a position where you have to kill an animal, you respect its habitat and stay out.

You can't have it both ways, Robert. If you're against the needless killing of animals, then you don't put yourself in a situation where you *have* to kill something.

Morgan said...

"Two bodies are attracted to each other with a ratio that is based on the difference in mass and distance between the two bodies. Law is nature."

If one of those bodies belongs to a 54-year-old man and the other belongs to a 12-year-old boy, then I don't think we need to be obeying the law of nature, regardless of attraction. At that point, the law of man should supercede, and the 54-year-old should be locked away from children.

dlkjdfsa said...

You think you know what animals think, just because you're human?

Yes. I think understanding relativity and empathy is what separates man from other animals.

I think it would be pretty close to what we think and feel.

Feel I completely agree, Think... not even close.

respect its habitat and stay out.

The problem is that we are taking over every other species habitat. 6.5 Billion people. Spraaaaaaalll.

If one of those bodies belongs to a 54-year-old man and the other belongs to a 12-year-old boy, then I don't think we need to be obeying the law of nature, regardless of attraction.

There is no way you can make the gravitational attraction disappear. Sexual attraction is a matter of morals not physics. Morals are based on the golden rule not the golden ratio.

Morgan said...

"Yes. I think understanding relativity and empathy is what separates man from other animals."

But you shoot yourself in the foot by agreeing with me. If animals can feel empathy, then they are able to understand another animal's suffering. If they can understand suffering, they can understand and stop its cause.

dlkjdfsa said...

I don't think other animals on earth are capable of empathy, some of the more advances and social animals probably can experience sympathy but not empathy. I don't think that extremely young humans can grasp empathy. I believe it takes time, a few years to develop it. Before 3 or 4 there is only me, me, me...... I think the more interaction one has with intelligent beings the faster the abstract concept of empathy can be understood.

dlkjdfsa said...

Main Entry: em·pa·thy

1 : the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it
2 : the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner.

I couldn't help myself Morgan. :)

dlkjdfsa said...

I just realized that empathy is key, to the Golden rule. Weird....

eaglewood said...

For those who have expressed their condolences I appreciate them. I only felt it was fair to Robert that I disclose to source of my question. It was a lulu of a question to ask. For those who don’t know Samuel was our 5th child. He is now in the arms of Yeshua and I look forward to seeing him one day. As painful as that loss was that is where my comfort is. We did get to know him in his extremely short life and for that we are thankful, but we often wonder what would have become of such a feisty opinionated boy.

Morgan said...

Eaglewood, in 1995 I had a miscarriage. We knew from an early ultrasound that the baby had stopped development; I'd recently gone through a bad bout with the flu and the doctors said the fever likely killed it.

I waited for my body to abort the pregnancy naturally, which it did.
The next morning, right before I woke up, I dreamed I was holding a perfect baby girl, with pink cheeks and lots of dark hair. I woke up and just cried, believing it was the lost baby telling me "Goodbye." My arms felt so empty.

I got pregnant again, and in 1997 delivered Alex. When the midwife laid her in my arms, I recognized her right away. It was the baby in my dreams. She just looked at me with these knowing little eyes, and
I realized then that the baby in my dreams wasn't telling me "goodbye," but was promising she'd be back.

It was a profoundly spiritual experience, and I believe both experiences locked together - like pieces in a puzzle - to teach me something.

I'm not trying to minimize the loss of your Samuel; as I said before a miscarriage cannot be compared to the loss of a full term infant. But there's a greater design, and I don't think a person has to be fully born to be a teacher.

eaglewood said...

I know there is a greater design. the hard part is seeing it while you are in the midst of it. Its like my calling, I know what it is and a little of what I am to do, but the "Why me?" escapes me.

thimscool said...

I can't imagine the pain.

I'm glad that you are comforted by your faith, Eaglewood.

Morgan, your story resonates with me.

Morgan said...

"Morgan, your story resonates with me."

I'm glad, Luke, and I'm sorry for the loss you and your wife suffered as well.

"I know there is a greater design. the hard part is seeing it while you are in the midst of it. Its like my calling, I know what it is and a little of what I am to do, but the "Why me?" escapes me."

Indeed it is. But look at it this way: Sometimes it's nice to walk the path without knowing where it's going to lead, enjoying the pleasant surprises you find around each bend. You don't have to always understand the path to enjoy it. Just be happy you're on it.

eaglewood said...

Well to get back on the topic with Robert, My point has been that he claimed that faith in G_d is illogical. I tried to show him that all people had to take things on faith. There are many unexplainable things in this universe; any explanation has to take faith into account because the only way to prove something is with empirical evidence. Even Roberts’s belief in the big bang is faith. There is not one shred of empirical evidence to back up his claim that it happened. Science is fallible. All the proponents of the big bang have to go on are purely semi-educated guesses. They started with a premise and decided to find or manipulate the evidence that would back up their theory. I can look at the same evidence and come up with a completely different conclusion. Who is right? My point is that much of what is passed for science today is simply faith in what they believe to be true. In essence trying to do what Robert is trying to do, and that is disprove that G_d exists.

dlkjdfsa said...

The reason that scientist believe that things can not be proved only disproved is because they know with logic that there are an endless amount of ways to test a theory. All the tests can say yes but yes can not be concluded with absolute certainly because there might be one good test that says no. That is why the atheist "logo" is missing one path of the atomic electron. We include this in our belief. We take something on faith, the fact that no one will be able to test everything to an absolute extent. However we are not blind to facts.

We can see the effects of the big bang. When we look at all the other galaxies, the light that reaches us has shifted to a red spectrum. This shows that every galaxy is moving away from every other galaxy. Add to this the fact that the farther they are away from us the more they have shifted red means that the process of expansion is accelerating. It might be cold in you view because you need to think that your conciseness will continue forever. Have faith that forever would be beyond boring and you will see your and everyone else's death as a great release, the ultimate high, touching Zero!

132 and a lot of scrolling. Glory :)

Morgan said...

"132 and a lot of scrolling. Glory :)"

And praise be.
So Robert, tell me one more time how Eaglewood's belief in God impacts you negatively?

dlkjdfsa said...

I travel around the country collecting unique rocks, shells and crystals and keep them in a nice group as an indicator to extra stellar intelligence that I am one of "them." This is one of the weirdest of my faith beliefs. I've been doing it ever since I was a kid and it makes up nearly 30% of my possessions. Yes, rocks I find while I'm hiking is the only thing that comes close in numbers to my paintings.

It gives me comfort. It makes me feel special. I enjoy looking at them, dusting them, wrapping them so they don't scratch each other when I move. It's weird. I have found 2 meteorites from outer space and countless variations of quartz. I meditate on the top of mountains focusing on my breath and "becoming one" with my surroundings. This is strange stuff and it's not allowed in the logical sides of my brain.

When I contemplate morality, I don't think of my meteorites. Morality is too important of an issue to involve things that are not logical. Since illogical things like superstition are incorporated into voting decisions, I and every other logic lovin' soul is threatened. It's obvious I do not hate Christians. I love most of you guys but Morality needs to be completely logic based. Karma fits within my belief of logic. Our Karma as a species sucks right now.

Anonymous said...

Morgan -
God can be anything 0r Nothing.

JohnR said...

Southside: What is the logical argument for the morality of abortion?

JohnR

eaglewood said...

“Morality is too important of an issue to involve things that are not logical. Since illogical things like superstition are incorporated into voting decisions, I and every other logic lovin' soul is threatened. It's obvious I do not hate Christians. I love most of you guys but Morality needs to be completely logic based. Karma fits within my belief of logic. Our Karma as a species sucks right now.”

Morals require an absolute. Who decides what that absolute is? As you have stated nature has no morality so we cannot look there. If we look to our own understanding morality is relative (i.e. one part of the world thinks it is ok to eat cats another shudders at the thought). Who decides? Do we go by the code or the Southside Rabbitslayer, or maybe Buddha, Solomon Rushdie, Karl Marx, or Hitler? Do you see my point? There has to be an objective standard in order for morality to work. If we leave it up to the subjective will of man there will be chaos. You talk about Karma but it does not work. Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. In a perfectly logical world it might work but in this real world it does not. Karma requires the belief in reincarnation, yet you are clear that all that awaits us is oblivion, it does not fit into your logic very well that way.

BTW my morals should not affect you, as I do not vote. I believe that this nation is on a downward spiral and will not even closely resemble the nation my forefathers envisioned in the next 25 to 50 years. No vote is going to stop it, only a true spiritual awakening will, so I have taken myself out of this rat race and I have become more concerned with my eternal citizenship in the Kingdom of G_d. But that is a totally different topic and off subject.

You keep dodging the question. If you have to ask what it is go read my previous posts.

Roland said...

I love most of you guys but Morality needs to be completely logic based.

Love is illogical.

MoGryph said...

Pheew... what a thread.
Hello all, my first time here, and since it's taken me so long to read this- I can't even remember any longer, how it is I found this site. So far Morgan, I like it.

First off- What is it about clowns? They freak me out too!

Since this thread started with such a beautiful poem, I'll share one of my own....


    ... In Command ...

I wish I could sail across the world,
  and visit distant lands.
I wish I could understand nature,
  more than any other man.
I wish the earth, and sky were one,
  both resting in my hands.
So that I could, at least I think I would,
  be knowingly, peacefully...
    In Command.

Now before anyone gets the wrong idea, my poem is not about dictatorship, but about the wish to hold things in better balance- not to control, but to help lead... And please understand, I wrote this when I was about 8, but I think the point still sort of holds true.

I'm not going to try to change anyones minds. I'm not going to say who's wrong, or who's right- I just think this is a great thread to toss in some thoughts of my own. I hope you don't mind a n00b being so outspoken Morgan.

I'd call myself an agnostic, although I'm closer to being aethiest I suppose. Some might call this cowardist, I might agree, however, I haven't found any religion that I can strongly believe in. I want to have some sort of faith, but I can't find the faith in faith. In fact, I'm right up the ally with most of what Robert says here.

Eaglewood stated last night (and I'm surprised Robert didn't respond): "I lived my life with hope and joy. I have enjoyed the life I have lived. You on the other hand have nothing but oblivion to look forward to. Where is the hope and the joy in that? If that were all I had to look forward to I would be looking for the way out and the best way to take as many as I could with me when I went."
I obviously can't speak for anyone else Eaglewood, but, I don't think that's how Robert feels. That's certainly not how I feel about it- the last line at least. Robert stated way back near the beginning of the post "I love being able to comprehend complex concepts such as the shape of the earth. I love intelligence." That's the way I feel too. I'm pretty freaked out when I contemplate the thought of dying. I truely want to go on forever, because- and you're right, the thought of 'looking forward' to oblivion, is NOT a joyfull thing. I love to live, because I love to think- to comprehend, to contimplate, to decide and to determine my own feelings. And I think that after life ceases, I'll be worm food, or just ash in the wind adding back to the good earth that nutured me in life. I can't bring myself to believe in something, just to make me feel happier about what will happen when my time comes. My beliefs are not comforting. My beliefs have no Happy ending. For that reason, I try to live in the here and now, as best as I can, and enjoying it as much as I can.

I'm sure a number of you are going to slam me for saying this, and again- this is ONLY my opinion, but, I believe that the idea that some omnipotent sentient being created US, and cares so much about US, above everything else in this vast universe, is a somewhat arrogant way of thinking. I'd almost place it near to Vanity (a sin, no?). I thought it was proved wrong at one time, but, does everything really revolve around us? I can't bring myself to look at any animals and think "I'm better than you are, because I can think." There is no Better. An animal just is, and in my beliefs, it was just a matter of luck that we evolved to become what we are. A series of happenstances that just occurred in the right order.

I don't mean to slam anyone for their beliefs. They're YOUR beliefs, and you have every right to them. And I fully expect that you have your just rights to think that what I say is crazy.

Speaking of crazy- I believe in the 'supernatural'. I believe in 'Spirits', although, my concept of what they are isn't the typical- I just think they're another part of this natural world, that we haven't figured out yet. Does that make me pagan? Does that mean, that I'm Evil? Robert, in the middle of one of your, I must say otherwise elegantly put entries, you stated: "The native Americans were religious because they believed in Spirits, the supernatural kind." Are there any other kinds? You placed it at the end of a paragraph, that it didn't seem to have any reference to, nor did it seem a strong lead-in to the next, although you might not have meant it to have any... I understand that you didn't say it in a bad way- I'm just not sure what thoughts that statement was supposed to invoke. I'm a native american. Although I don't hold the same beliefs as my ancestors, I don't think that their religion was any more supernatural than Christianity, Budism, Judaism, or any other kind of religion. It was a belief- a faith. Different than others, true, but all have differences.

Religions to me, are merely baselines for morality. The means to assist people in making good judgement calls. For that reason, I'm all for religion. There are certainly people that need some sort of guidance. Religions are also wonderful for helping people cope. My brother for instance, is a recovering alcoholic. He's never been religious, but A.A. brought 'God' into his life, and 'God' has helped him through those first 2 years so far. HIS 'God' didn't do much for helping him keep from turning that Alcohol addiction into a Gambling addiction, something he didn't have before, but at least now he's only blown all of his son's college funds, instead of killing himself or others. I truely am greatful for this, and hopefully, his idealogy of 'God' will bring him through this as well, and get him on the straight and narrow. I certainly won't hold his hand, I love him, but he's made his bed, and somewhere, deep inside, morality should kick in.

I have no quarrells with those who find peace in their beliefs. I truely don't have any issue with people believing in the concept of a God. My issues are with the so-called organizations that are based around the worship of God - the 'Houses of God'. Yes, I strongly believe that many do extremely good work. I can't even begin to imagine what the world would be like without so many people believing in a higher being. I definately can't imagine large numbers of people not having religions, but still having the respect for nature, our fellow man, and the world around us as I do. I can't see some omniscient being taking his wrath out on someone, strictly because they didn't follow his/her ways. What of the person that never even heard of His/Her way? What of the person that grew up, not knowing anything else but another religion? My, my... All religions believe theirs are right, so which one should we choose? The one that suits us best? The one that meets our needs? The one we can get away with the most things that we do, and not have to suffer eternally for? My mother's been married 3 times. She can't eat the wafer? I'm just glad she doesn't get spit on if she walks into church.

Religions have always been so convoluted with politics and power. This is factual. "God wrote the bible". No, I fear not, Man wrote the bible. Even if 'God' had a hand in the beginning of the bible, and it's based off of God's works, and the history following- man has changed it, or added to it, whenever it was found it didn't suit his need, or didn't cover something that was needed. Maybe not recently, but there was a time when Bible=Law, and Law=Bible. Was it the Law that stated, that someone that's seeing hallusinations, who's muscles are spasming and having spinal contractions causing them to arch their backs in abnormal postions- speaking tongues, all of this, that they're a Witch! No. Church stated this. 'God' did not say this- the Church did. And now we know, it was Ergot poisoning from bad grain.

I can't point out any cool links, or what-not. I'm probably way off the mark by basing the few specific facts that I have to back up this idea, right out of a movies or off of PBS shows that I believe were written with the intention of being close to fact, but here are a few- Luther, starring Joseph Fiennes as Martin Luther. Well, one of the things he was abhorred by, was that fact that the church was SELLING salvation. Want salvation- pay up. Want to save your sinning relatives who have passed on? You can buy their way in. There's another religion these days that offers salvation for large fees. They call it Scient ology. If you don't know about it, well, do some searching, and you'll learn all the scary facts.

Argghh... I really truely didn't mean for this to be a religion bashing entry. I do support it and think it is a great thing. Having strong convictions to do good is, well, Good! Religion has brought unity amoung people, when otherwise there'd be chaos. Generally, those running shop for their Gods, so-to-speak, are good people, trying to make a difference, helping to guide people, doing enumurous deeds to sooth those who need soothing- 'spirtually' and physically. I've known a few men and women of the cloth- and have the utmost respect for them, and for their beliefs. I just think that sometimes the stuff that those near the top try stuffing down our throats, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Not everything can be just believed because we're told to believe it. Faith is one thing, if you feel it because you feel it, but faith just being there because someone told you to believe it, can have desasterous effects.

- Mo

Morgan said...

Wow, Mo. Where to begin. Your comments were so interesting and well-written. I find myself eager to comment on several of them, starting with the most light-hearted.

"First off- What is it about clowns? They freak me out too!"

I've always hated clowns. The clown under the bed from "Poltergeist", Pennywise from "It," (I liked Tim Curry so much better as a sweet transvestite). And this may not count, but how many of you saw "Magic," with Anthony Hopkins. Technically, it wasn't a clown, it was a ventriloquists dummy. But they freak me out just the same.

Your poem, "In Command" -- beautiful. You were eight when you wrote that? Wow! Color me impressed! (But if you tell me you're ten now I'm going to have to ask you to leave the room for being too smart for your own good.)

"Eaglewood stated last night (and I'm surprised Robert didn't respond): "I lived my life with hope and joy. I have enjoyed the life I have lived. You on the other hand have nothing but oblivion to look forward to. Where is the hope and the joy in that?"

I somehow missed this, but I agree that it highlights one of the problems with many Christians, who are so focused on Heaven that they completely miss the beauty of their life. I do not focus on heaven. I don't know what heaven is like or even care to ponder it. If I were told right now that there was nothing beyond this, that this was all there was, I'd be OK with it. I've had enough joy in this life and am grateful for it.
Too many Christians get off on suffering, (and I'm not directing this at any one person) not because they really enjoy it, but because they think to be a Christian is to suffer, to be dour, to live in self-denial. I think this is a slap in the face of God, who put all the beauty we could ever want or need right within reach.
While I'm a Christian, I appreciate other faiths, particularly the Buddhist perspective. I believe it makes me a much better Christian to understand and apply different faith philosophies. That will have some telling me I'm damned, not that I care what they think.
Not all Christians are tunnel-visioned on Heaven, Mo. While I personally like Eaglewood, please don't think Eaglewood represents all of us.

"Even if 'God' had a hand in the beginning of the bible, and it's based off of God's works, and the history following- man has changed it, or added to it, whenever it was found it didn't suit his need, or didn't cover something that was needed."

I absolutely agree. But fundamentalists use literal interpretation and brain-dead acceptance of scripture as a litmus test for Christianity, when the Bible is so full of contradicitions that only a blind man could ignore them. What's more, the historical revisions for political reasons are common knowledge, but ignored by those who want to use the Word as a Weapon.

Morgan said...

"...Martin Luther. Well, one of the things he was abhorred by, was that fact that the church was SELLING salvation. Want salvation- pay up. Want to save your sinning relatives who have passed on? You can buy their way in. There's another religion these days that offers salvation for large fees. They call it Scient ology."

I own that movie. It's excellent. They were selling something called "indulgences" for salvation, healing, whatever and using bogus relics to turn the churches into sideshow exhibits. But it's not just Scientology that offers salvation for a fee. The entire right wing Christian movement uses the same tactic. Want to keep gays away? Go to WND and order the latest anti-gay book. Or the latest anti-public school book. Whatever "evil" you're afraid of, we have the book that will feed that fear and make you a better Christian....it's all a racket. The Christian right are in many ways the new moneychangers.

I'll respond to the rest of your comment later as I get a chance. I'm just so glad you wrote what you did.

MoGryph said...

Thanks Morgan,

I'm glad you didn't take offense at my writing. Sometimes I work so darned hard at making my point, I find it difficult to dig my why out again, to not offend those who I truely don't intend to. If someone needs to be offended however, I'm all about that, but I wouldn't make it subtle. :-)

Oh, if ONLY to be 10 again.... heheh Triple it and you'll be closer.

It's truely not often that I post anything on the web. I just found this thread so intriguing. I was moved to write something, when I saw an actual intelligent discussion going on, without anyone flinging dirt, or just spitting out drivle, that typically goes on in so many places on the net.

[:-)

- Mo

eaglewood said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
eaglewood said...

Where do I start? I think I have been slightly misrepresented here.

1. My statement to Robert has been slightly taken out of context. I am not myopically focused on going to heaven, While I do believe that it is a much better place than here as has been stated in the Word, I am in no rush to get there yet. I was not advocating giving up on life here, on the contrary other than a few heartbreaks I have enjoyed my life here so far and look forward to many more years of enjoyment. My statement to Robert was about the futility of his position, I have been where he is and I could never go back. If all there is to look forward to is oblivion then what is the point in living in the here and now?

2. My main point to Robert the whole time though, was that in all parts of our lives we take something on faith. Now sometimes that faith is because of demonstrated reliability (my car example), sometimes it is based upon what someone in authority states (Roberts faith in the Big Bang), and sometimes it just is (faith in the supernatural is one of those things). Robert’s claim that faith is illogical just does not mesh with the fact that much of what he believes takes just as much faith as what Morgan, or I believe.

3.M organ, I have tried to and tried to tell you that I am not your typical right wing conservative Christian. Yes my theology is conservative, but as I have told you in the past it is not because I have not questioned it. For the non-believer I take what would be seen by most as a liberal stance. Live your life however you see fit it makes no difference to me, but there is a choice in life (you are free to reject it if you want). That choice is to accept or reject Jesus as your Savior AND Lord. If you reject him then you will spend eternity separated from Him. If you do accept His lordship over your life then your love for Him will compel you to follow all of His commandments. That it is free will and free choice, but just as it is here each choice has a consequence. The stakes are just higher when they come to eternity.

Morgan said...

"3.Morgan, I have tried to and tried to tell you that I am not your typical right wing conservative Christian. Yes my theology is conservative, but as I have told you in the past it is not because I have not questioned it."

I know that, Eaglewood, and that's why I said in my analysis that I wasn't directing my comments at anyone in particular. I've read enough of your writings to know that you think things out very well and are no mindless sheep.

"If all there is to look forward to is oblivion then what is the point in living in the here and now?"

I don't want to speak for The Rabbitslayer, but I'd wager that the point is to live life to the fullest and do as much good for our fellow man as we can. That, to me, is as rewarding as the idea of Heaven may be to others.

"It's truely not often that I post anything on the web. I just found this thread so intriguing. I was moved to write something, when I saw an actual intelligent discussion going on, without anyone flinging dirt, or just spitting out drivle, that typically goes on in so many places on the net."

Thank you, Mo. There's a good group of people here, and while we do get into heated debates I think we all try to be respectful. Like you, I've had the experience of contributing to or reading other blogs where people do the opposite. That type of behavior only seems to attract the worst elements.

eaglewood said...

“I know that, Eaglewood, and that's why I said in my analysis that I wasn't directing my comments at anyone in particular. I've read enough of your writings to know that you think things out very well and are no mindless sheep.”

Coming from you Morgan, I will take that as high praise indeed.


“Like you, I've had the experience of contributing to or reading other blogs where people do the opposite. That type of behavior only seems to attract the worst elements.”

That is why I tend to keep my mouth shut over at a certain blog written by a person who some think sports a mohawk.

Morgan said...

"That is why I tend to keep my mouth shut over at a certain blog written by a person who some think sports a mohawk."

That's why I stopped visiting there completely. If you pander to the lowest element, you quickly join their ranks. I'm far happier agreeing to disagree with reasonable people than endlessly disagree with chronically disagreeable ones.

thimscool said...

I don't know. Sometimes it's fun to get your hands dirty.

I had a good time there just before Christmas...

Morgan said...

"As they say in Texas, I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you."

ROFLMAO...Brilliant!!!
You did a good job in the debate. It's very difficult for the regulars there to go head to head with people. The usual tactic is to just start calling names and hope they go away.

I used to enjoy it over there but gradually my embarrassment for the host overshadowed any enjoyment I got from participating in his discussions, which seem to be pretty much circular. I got the feeling he was surrounding himself with people even he didn't like and it made me kind of uncomfortable.

MoGryph said...

Ooooooohhh..... my brain hurts. I tried reading through the "Just before Christmas" blog. Politics are definately not my fortee, and just attempting to read a strongly heated topic like that, especially one that I've tried so hard in the past to ignore, just makes my head spin. Everytime I try to think like Bush, my mind just goes numb, and I feel stupider... Maybe I just can't grasp his amazing intellect, or perhaps I hit the mark right on....

Okay, Eaglewood- I have to say right off the bat, if I seemed to be slighting you directly with my remarks, it was wholy not intentional, and I realize that you probably really don't care, especially since I've never been around here before, but I just want to make sure you know that I haven't come here to stir things up, and I definately don't mean to make statements that cause people to feel uncomfortable. I make remarks to make people think- that's all, nothing else, and I treasure their feedback, as it makes ME think. Back and forth. Back and forth. Now, this kind of thinking I can get into.

You've spoken your thoughts so eloquently and concisely, that I completely and strongly included you, though indirectly, when I stated that I was actually moved to write because of the intelligent and non-dirt flinging discussions going on here. Everyone's voice is valid, and holds a point of view that others might not see, and I saw this as a great location to join in and discuss those points of view. I'm admitadly not always very diplomatic at it though.

Let me back up a step here, and say this- I might not be a religious man, and some may say that I badmouth organized religion at times, but I absolutely LOVE to learn about religious beliefs. I may not personally believe in the bible, but I'm intregued by the story, and I agree with the morals. I don't think of it at all as a Ferrie tale, not when there are so many people that believe and have such strong convictions about it. To me it's culture. And I can't help but respect someone else's culture, as much as I would hope that people would respect my native american ancestors beliefs as their culture, and their right to believe.

Let me put something in perspective though, and you all might think I'm a wack-job because of it- but, as I stated before, I believe in 'Spirits'. Well, I only touched lightly on that subject. One of my plethora of extreme interests is the Supernatural. Ghosts, spirits, whatever you want to call it, it's something that's been close to me all my life, because it's been close to my family. Although I haven't had any of the "close-encounters" that others in my family have had, I believe, like to research the topic, and I've actually joined a paranormal research group. Now, I can almost see some of your heads shake like "okay, this guy's.... a looney!" This is something I just can't understand. There are so many who have no problem with faith in an omnipotent being that created and watches over us, but yet the same people think that those who believe in earth-bound souls, or telepathy, or other such paranormal subjects, are just plain nuts. I don't know all of you well enough to know if I'm way off base, I'm just stating this from the general population's consensus.

But, I degress, and I'm not attempting to pull THAT whole ball of twine of a topic into your worlds, and this blog- it's not the place, and I'm certain it's not something that most of you want or are comfortable chatting about. I'm just letting you know that I understand what it's like to be on the other side of another person's beliefs, and what it might feel like to be jeered at. And for this reason, I'm not one to point fingers and prejudize with intention.

I do want to hit on Eaglewoods repeated stance though, of - "If all there is to look forward to is oblivion then what is the point in living in the here and now?" The here and now is Exactly the point. It's LIFE! In the words of one of my favorite christian artists "There's more to this life, than living and dying", and "THIS is the Great Adventure" (Steven Curtis Chapman). Okay, I guess I'm a bit slanted towards him, because he shares 2/3rds of my real-life name, but none-the-less, it's good music. :-) And, since I only know of him, and Joshua Kadison, when it comes to Christian music, I'm at a loss for knowing any Bad christian artists. heheh.

Bah... I think I've completely lost track of where I was going... Not surprising. Morgan, if you think you've seen enough of this thread, or even me, just go ahead and tell me to Shaddup, and I won't take offense. :-) Otherwise, as they say- let the games begin! hehe. You guys really sound like a great group, and I'd love to keep blogging with you. I promise to try hard to stay main-stream. And from here forward, I'm not going to waste my breath trying to pull my foot out of my mouth everytime I think I'm saying something that is slightly misleading. It takes way too long and way too many words to constantly attempt to not offend someone, and I hope you will all remember that the things I share will never be meant to harm. I spend way too much time thinking before posting something, and writing, and editing, and re-writing, and just trying to get things right, that my posts go on... and on... and........ Yeah, I'm one of those types of people that tries to make everyone happy. Not sure how well I've done it, but, I know I can laugh at myself for even trying. :-)

-Mo
SBC

-------------------------------------
"Who said Brevity is a Virtue?" - Me

eaglewood said...

MoGryph,

First do not apologize for what you believe. Stand firm and take ownership, most people will not ridicule you here for what you believe if you stand behind it. We may disagree with you but not ridicule you.

I would say that the majority of us do believe in the supernatural, we may have differing opinions on the source and how it works but we do believe in the supernatural.

I love Steven Curtis Chapman He is a great artist. I also really like “The Great Adventure” The song is about living our lives to the fullest, and spreading G_d’s love. The scriptures tell us the Jesus came to give us life and give it to us more abundantly. That is the gist of that song. I am not trying to discount that a person without Christ can live a fulfilling life, I was just pointing out that looking into oblivion can be quite depressing. I have been there in my life so I know what I am talking about; it was ether find a meaning to life or punch out. I found that meaning in Yeshua (Jesus).

I do not feel slighted; I was only trying to clarify my position. Not to slight our host, but she does tend to paint me in with those in my faith that are a little more bellicose than I. You could say that Morgan and I do not see eye to eye on all things, but then there is no fun in everyone thinking alike.

BTW Morgan accepts all viewpoints here and will not tell someone to shut up as long as we keep it civil. It is one of the reasons I come back. I like to debate it keeps my mind sharp. I do not always win, but I do get my point across. So do not be a stranger join in the debates, just be prepared to back up what you say, and don’t worry about making every one happy. That is an impossibility I learned a long time ago.

Morgan,

I hope you do not mind that I answered for you a little here.

MoGryph said...

Okay, after seeing just how long that post was, I want to tell MYSELF to "Shaddup!". LOL.

Morgan, I can't wait to hear the rest of your comments on my first entry. I'm hoping there is more to what I wrote that you want to comment on, even if disregarding my last post. :-)

Yes, Luther was a great movie, and I'm envious that you own it. I'm a Historical Summary buff. I'd call myself a History Buff, but I'm way to slow of a reader to read about history, so I take everything I can from movies, PBS, NPR, PRI, summaries, and word of mouth.

Not sure how much you'd like a modern-day fictitious christian movie, but "Joshua" was another great one that I would absolutely love to own, and would suggest with no hesitation. I won't give anything away, but I think anyone with good morals, and an interest in Christianity, would find it something hard to push pause in the middle of. It's also got some great actors that I believe are very underated.

"Right-wing", "Left-wing". I've never taken the time to learn what it means to be from different wings. I'm sure I've heard it in relation to religion before, but I feel so inadequate with the terminology. Everytime I've heard those phrases, I've thought they had something to do with politics, and, well, I've drowned them out. I finally read the Da Vinci Code a few weeks ago, and well, I think I understand it now, from the few references that Browne makes to the phrases, but I'm definately not on par yet to feel like I really know what I'm talking about.

I didn't say it before Morgan, but Thank you for your kind words about my poem. It was the first poem I ever wrote, and like it was yesterday, I can still remember creating it. I think it's the first time that I've ever posted it anywhere. In fact, I believe it's the first time I've ever posted any of my poems anywhere, so, I'm sure you must be able to guess how friendly I felt this group to be, to actually go out on a limb and toss a piece of my life in here.

Ooooh-- mush- pheeewwee. lol

- MO

thimscool said...

Yes MO,

Your poem was outstanding. The cadence is perfect.

Did you work it over a lot to get it right, or did it just occur to you?

A right wing and a left wing, both are flapping frantically for the Phoenix to get off the ground. 230 years into it and she's just about airborne. And what will she encounter?

MoGryph said...

thimscool, Thank you very much. I don't think I really worked all that hard on it. As I said, I was only about 8 years old or so.

I wish I could remember what my inspiration was. I CAN remember, that I was laying down in the back seat of my parents car, as we were riding up from CT to Cape Cod. Whether it was after some Blizzard, or a Hurricaine, I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure we were going up to see what kind of damage had occurred, or what the waves were like. Not that it would have been damage to any of our stuff- we didn't have the kind of money to be having one of those stuffy old Cape houses. hehe.

Anyhow, yea- it just kind of happend I suppose. I don't think even at 8 I had the focus to work on something like that for any length of time.

- Mo

Morgan said...

"I didn't say it before Morgan, but Thank you for your kind words about my poem. It was the first poem I ever wrote, and like it was yesterday, I can still remember creating it. I think it's the first time that I've ever posted it anywhere."

Well, it's absolutely lovely, Mo.
I'm kind of swamped with other things and may not have time to peruse the rest of your comments, but I did thrust you into the bloglight by building my latest post around your something you had to say.
And I mean it when I said you need to stop apologizing for saying so much. I'm thoroughly enjoying the perspective you bring. Thank you.

Terrymum said...

Terry mum (Mitzi's kin) again, late to party.

LOVE this poem!!!! One of yours???

Am in total agreement with sentiment.

In return, here are a few of mine:

BALANCE
Let the safety of sameness go
flying loose into maybes and might.
Find the courage to try and to do
from conviction born out of what’s right.

Make choices with eternal eyes;
they view forever as already here.
Keep hold fast to all good, love and grace
use kindness against any fear.
It’s not the person who wins
who has truth as their guiding path
but the one faithfully strives
and is willing to take every chance.

The soul alone seeks what will last;
being both bold and eternally still.
The balance is found not by chance
but in seeking to do God’s will.
******************
GLORY

So finely ground the glass that shines in pieces at my feet.
The mirror of distress, and life, reflecting my defeat.
And yet, perhaps from folly's source, I smile at memories sweet.
Remembering the tastes of joy while bent beneath defeat.

Like phoenix risen from the ash comes time to learn and grow.
Above the waves made up of tears drifts on the ship I row;
made up of timbers cut from life's limbs, nailed there with what I know.
All held together, patched and pieced, by hope that lights my soul.

The walls built high against the light do not keep out what's real.
The hurts delivered by this earth will lose their power to feel.
And all the lies, and all the pain, will melt like molten steel
when finally eternal Love in glory does reveal.

Morgan said...

"LOVE this poem!!!! One of yours???"

Yes, terrymum. I wrote it just the other night. Thanks so much for the kind words.


Yours are so beautiful. I particularly loved "Balance." How long have you been writing?

Terrymum said...

Since I could write. I can't stop writing poetry, even when I try. Much of it I don't share, ever. It's just the way I usually get out what is bubbling inside me.... I shared your poem with loads of people, include Rev. Sandra K. She hasn't been a blog fan, but says yours "converted" her, so be prepared for "new friends"! lol